1984Echoes Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 I think this is the appropriate title for next year's draft. We really don't want to be doing this anymore (picking at the top of the MLB draft). But based on our recent comments on another lost season... this is where we're at. Currently at the #6 spot. Unless we go on a wild winning streak to finish this season it looks like we're going to end up with another top 10 draft pick, possibly higher than that pending our finish and then the lottery. Here is MLB's look at an early top 20 next year, I'm sure there's someone in there that can help us... you know, in 2028 or so... https://www.mlb.com/news/2024-mlb-draft-mock I won't focus on any of these guys until next year but, have at it for those interested. And we really don't want to be here anymore. So... hoping this time next year, we can be talking about making a run at the playoffs rather than a run at another top 10 draft pick. And I can save the next MLB Draft thread until November-ish, at the earliest... But... we'll see. We'll see what Harris has up his sleeve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 Don't forget the draft lottery. There is no "Currently at the #6 spot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 31, 2023 Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 Yeah I get that.. that's why I said where we finish in the draft will depend on this year's finish "and then the lottery." I hate lotteries. Especially it seems, for the Detroit teams. But if we gain, I won't look a gift-horse in the mouth. If we lose... I'll bitch, as usual... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Yeah I get that.. that's why I said where we finish in the draft will depend on this year's finish "and then the lottery." I hate lotteries. Especially it seems, for the Detroit teams. But if we gain, I won't look a gift-horse in the mouth. If we lose... I'll bitch, as usual... The first draft lottery worked well. I like the lottery. I don't like to see teams being rewarded for being terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 36 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The first draft lottery worked well. I like the lottery. I don't like to see teams being rewarded for being terrible. Oh stop it. Drafts distribute incoming amateur talent in a most rational manner, and have been doing so successfully in most sports for many years. Lotteries, in any sport, have done absolutely nothing to affect or change team behavior even one iota, and only serve to dilute the true function of a draft. Lotteries address a perception, not a reality. 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 Just now, Longgone said: Oh stop it. Drafts distribute incoming amateur talent in a most rational manner, and have been doing so successfully in most sports for many years. Lotteries, in any sport, have done absolutely nothing to affect or change team behavior even one iota, and only serve to dilute the true function of a draft. Lotteries address a perception, not a reality. Word. (and it looks like we might be drafting an Ohtani) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted August 31, 2023 Share Posted August 31, 2023 FWIW, if the Tigers get another lottery pick next year, they are ineligible to go higher than 10th in 2025. This is true of the Nationals this year, so their awful season will not be rewarded with a high pick next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted August 31, 2023 Author Share Posted August 31, 2023 Well... Hopefully... It won't matter to us in 2025. Just gotta start making some improvements in our record... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Longgone said: Oh stop it. Drafts distribute incoming amateur talent in a most rational manner, and have been doing so successfully in most sports for many years. Lotteries, in any sport, have done absolutely nothing to affect or change team behavior even one iota, and only serve to dilute the true function of a draft. Lotteries address a perception, not a reality. The main purpose of the draft is to keep signing bonuses down which it does effectively for better or for worse. As for the lottery versus the draft, I agree it doesn't affect team behavior much if at all. It does affect how they are rewarded though. I like how the new process limits how many high picks a team can get in multiple years. I don't see how lotteries dilute anything since the poor teams still tend to get better picks than good teams. I'd rather see a close to the bottom team that's trying to get better get a pick over some garbage franchise like Oakland that doesn't even care. Edited September 1, 2023 by Tiger337 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 56 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The main purpose of the draft is to keep signing bonuses down which it does effectively for better or for worse. As for the lottery versus the draft, I agree it doesn't affect team behavior much if at all. It does affect how they are rewarded though. I like how the new process limits how many high picks a team can get in multiple years. I don't see how lotteries dilute anything since the poor teams still tend to get better picks than good teams. I'd rather see a close to the bottom team that's trying to get better get a pick over some garbage franchise like Oakland that doesn't even care. The main purpose is to distribute incoming talent in an equitable manner, which also happens to contain costs more efficiently than the alternative of big market clubs outbidding everyone for top talent. It serves no purpose to provide rewards, or punitive actions if it has absolutely no impact on corrective, constructive or positive behavior changes. Your last paragraph makes no sense, as a “garbage franchise“ is just as likely to get rewarded as any other since there is no correlation between the lottery and behavior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 10 minutes ago, Longgone said: The main purpose is to distribute incoming talent in an equitable manner, which also happens to contain costs more efficiently than the alternative of big market clubs outbidding everyone for top talent. It serves no purpose to provide rewards, or punitive actions if it has absolutely no impact on corrective, constructive or positive behavior changes. Your last paragraph makes no sense, as a “garbage franchise“ is just as likely to get rewarded as any other since there is no correlation between the lottery and behavior. Nope, the main purpose of the draft has always been to suppress bonuses. Lee is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Nope, the main purpose of the draft has always been to suppress bonuses. Lee is right. That’s disingenuous. It was for competitive balance. Most of the teams in the league couldn’t compete with the big market clubs. It was a league of haves and have nots, and the majority of med to smaller market clubs pushed for a draft to alleviate that. Of course they also wanted to contain costs, the objectives are intertwined. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, Longgone said: That’s disingenuous. It was for competitive balance. Most of the teams in the league couldn’t compete with the big market clubs. It was a league of haves and have nots, and the majority of med to smaller market clubs pushed for a draft to alleviate that. Of course they also wanted to contain costs, the objectives are intertwined. I would say containing costs is #1 (which is always the case with everything owners do) and getting a little more parity is secondary. Of course, parity is also indirectly worth money to the majority of owners, although I think that becomes less important, the more they expand playoffs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I would say containing costs is #1 (which is always the case with everything owners do) and getting a little more parity is secondary. Of course, parity is also indirectly worth money to the majority of owners, although I think that becomes less important, the more they expand playoffs. The motivating issue was competitive balance. Of course they want to contain costs, what business owner doesn’t? But do you think these rich, egotistical creatures bought a team to control costs? No! They all want to win and they want a fair playing field where they can compete, for their egos and for their communities. Cost control is just their nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, Longgone said: The motivating issue was competitive balance. Of course they want to contain costs, what business owner doesn’t? But do you think these rich, egotistical creatures bought a team to control costs? No! They all want to win and they want a fair playing field where they can compete, for their egos and for their communities. Cost control is just their nature. That is what they tell us! The only reason they would want competitive balance is if it helps them economically which is probably the case for some owners. Containing costs helps all owners. It looks to me like the whole draft is about limiting bonuses now more than ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: That is what they tell us! The only reason they would want competitive balance is if it helps them economically which is probably the case for some owners. Containing costs helps all owners. It looks to me like the whole draft is about limiting bonuses now more than ever. I kind of admire your cynicism. However, the essence, the essential quality of any sports league is the ability of each member to be able to compete. No one wants a league of perennial haves and have nots, and no teams should be granted inherent competitive advantages. The idea is to win, not balance spreadsheets. You have to cost control to remain viable, but you have to have competitive balance to maintain a healthy interest in the league itself. The motivating, historical issue for the draft was competitive balance. Sure, it also controls costs, but parity was the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 I am cynical and you are idealistic. 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 Just now, Tiger337 said: I am cynical and you are idealistic. 😀 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I am cynical and you are idealistic. 😀 You speak of controlling costs as if it were a nefarious plot. You own a business you have to control costs to survive. But the actual business of a sports league is competitive balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Longgone said: But do you think these rich, egotistical creatures bought a team to control costs? But you have to allow for the evolution between the exhilaration of the dreamt-of for-a-lifetime purchase, and the various degrees of buyer's remorse a decade or two later. Every owner buys with the idea of being Midas to his franchise. Too many turn into Bob Nutting soon enough. Edited September 1, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Longgone said: You speak of controlling costs as if it were a nefarious plot. You own a business you have to control costs to survive. But the actual business of a sports league is competitive balance. The MLB draft was introduced in the 60s when the owners completely controlled the players under the reserve clause, so they did have a nefarious plot going at the time. The players had to take whatever amount of money the owners gave them and if it was up to the owners, they would still operate that way today. The only time there was any free market for players was when they first signed with a team. The draft took that away. The players, of course, have a lot more leverage today with free agency and arbitration. None of what the players have gained since the 60s was granted because the owners (or players for that matter) wanted to make the league more competitive or better in any way. It all happened as a result of bitter battles between the owners and the players union. Those battles still exist today even with the obscene amount of money in the game for both owners and players. There was no problem with competitive balance in the game in 2011 when slot values and bonus pools were introduced into the CBA. That was done strictly to limit the amount of money young players could get which has always been the primary purpose of the draft. The difference between today and the 60s is that the player's union also benefits to an extent from limiting the amount of money young players can get. It means more money for the veterans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: The MLB draft was introduced in the 60s when the owners completely controlled the players under the reserve clause, so they did have a nefarious plot going at the time. The players had to take whatever amount of money the owners gave them and if it was up to the owners, they would still operate that way today. The only time there was any free market for players was when they first signed with a team. The draft took that away. The players, of course, have a lot more leverage today with free agency and arbitration. None of what the players have gained since the 60s was granted because the owners (or players for that matter) wanted to make the league more competitive or better in any way. It all happened as a result of bitter battles between the owners and the players union. Those battles still exist today even with the obscene amount of money in the game for both owners and players. There was no problem with competitive balance in the game in 2011 when slot values and bonus pools were introduced into the CBA. That was done strictly to limit the amount of money young players could get which has always been the primary purpose of the draft. The difference between today and the 60s is that the player's union also benefits to an extent from limiting the amount of money young players can get. It means more money for the veterans. None of this very trite, tired, jaded rant about greedy owners changes the historical fact that deep unrest within owners of mid to smaller market franchises, who were not granted a level playing field and could not compete with the big market clubs for talent, led them to pursue a draft. This disparity and rift amongst owners has been addressed in various ways yet still remains today, and will remain until revenues are shared as per other major sports. Do owners want to control costs? Of course! Are they greedy? Some, probably. Does a draft inhibit amateur bonuses? Absolutely. Still, the prime purpose of a draft is to equitably distribute talent. Sometimes face value is face value. Edited September 1, 2023 by Longgone 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 The draft is about control...cost conteol is part of that. Controlling the distribution of talent is as well. Doesn't matter who Spencer Torkleson wanted to play for..hes gonna play for Detroit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 I haven't checked the schedule so I don't know how many games we have left with the White Sox but if we don't have many realistically 5th is probably the lowest/highest(depending on your viewpoint) that we will end up. The furthest I see us dropping is 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 14 hours ago, Longgone said: Oh stop it. Drafts distribute incoming amateur talent in a most rational manner, and have been doing so successfully in most sports for many years. Lotteries, in any sport, have done absolutely nothing to affect or change team behavior even one iota, and only serve to dilute the true function of a draft. Lotteries address a perception, not a reality. Lottery or no, teams will continue to take a swan dive on payroll and let them chips fall where they may, given how MLB teams make so much money and accumulate so much market cap even when they lose big every. Damn. Year. You can also ask the Pistons how they like the draft lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted September 1, 2023 Share Posted September 1, 2023 55 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: I haven't checked the schedule so I don't know how many games we have left with the White Sox but if we don't have many realistically 5th is probably the lowest/highest(depending on your viewpoint) that we will end up. The furthest I see us dropping is 12. The #1 pick is still in play as long as there is a lottery... So if the Tigers go on a heater and finish 12th from the bottom, it is theoretically possible the 6 teams worse that didn't make the playoffs jump them in the lottery, thus 18th is on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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