Evaluate Scott Harris' first year

[mtutiger]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

You do seem to support what Tigers management does whether it be Avila or Harris.  It's a fair stance to take since they have a lot more information than us. 

Criticizing them is more fun!  😀

It's not even that I support management more, just feel like, realistically, thereby be more variables at play in any of these situations than we currently have as fans.

Everybody "fans" differently... doesn't make it better or worse or anything.

[Edman85]

Fans: spend money good!

Fans two years into a contract: why did you spend that money? We are stuck with this guy in the lineup? What a stupid move.

[Tiger337]

The Tigers williingness to have a higher payroll is generally good for fans.  It should of course be spent wisely, but if the Tigers take a chance on some 1 or 2 year deals to make them more competitive the next year or two, I am not going to worry about how much money could have saved.  It's the longer term deals where we can get screwed.  

Edited September 4, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tiger337]

38 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

It's not even that I support management more, just feel like, realistically, thereby be more variables at play in any of these situations than we currently have as fans.

 

And their goals are not always the same as fans.  It matters to them whether the save a few million, but most fans could not care less as long as it's not a long term deal where they get stuck with someone in the line-up for years.  

[Sports_Freak]

On 9/3/2023 at 10:44 AM, Tiger337 said:

I think his big picture plan of collecting young talent was similar to Harris' plan.  Harris might be better at player development, but almost all of the developing players were acquired by Avila.    

And I really dislike this "working the count" philosophy. I've known for 50 years that players have a higher BA with a 2-0 count over an 0-2 count. It's common, basic baseball.

[Sports_Freak]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:34 PM, 1984Echoes said:

He also picked Parker Meadows, Colt Keith, Bigbie, Wenceel Perez, etc...

Those guys have had some ups and downs... But Avila picked them. I like a LOT of players that Avila picked.

But I feel more comfortable with Harris's development team with those and any of our minor league guys (picked by Avila OR Harris).

Hands down.

Who has he helped develop that gives you such confidence in him?

[Sports_Freak]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

I spent practically every day of the first six weeks of the offseason advocating for his return!

So how come you hated Candelario? 🤣🤣

[Sports_Freak]

But most impact players want a much longer than 2 year contract. The only players you'll get on a 1 or 2 year deal are players who need to prove they deserve a loooong contract.

[Wockenfussy]

Simple. The Tigers are on a pace to win 74-75 games in 2023. They won 66 in 2022. That's a gain of 8-9 wins. And that's with a lot of dumpster diving from the waiver wire, and no meaningful salary commitments from ownership so far. I'd call that an "A" or if I'm feeling grumpy (and I usually am) an "A-". I agree that much more will be learned about Scott Harris during the off-season, and it will be much clearer about how to judge his first 2 years than solely his 1st year. 

[SoCalTiger]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

I spent practically every day of the first six weeks of the offseason advocating for his return!

Do you want to sign him this off season ? I think Harris had already considered that and said no which factored into his decision. The fail isn't cutting Candy it's not finding a replacement unless he was banking on Colt Keith or Mallory all along.

[RatkoVarda]

On Earth 654, in 2022 Avila got a contract extension when the Tigers finished 1 game shy of the Wild Card because Greene does not break his foot at the end of ST, Austin Meadows does not contract Covid, Candelario hits 50 doubles, Robbie Grossman does not turn into a pumpkin, and ERod’s wife never finds out he is sleeping with the nanny.

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

So how come you hated Candelario? 🤣🤣

How funny would it be if Harris signed him for 3/50 to come back!  😅

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

Do you want to sign him this off season ? I think Harris had already considered that and said no which factored into his decision. The fail isn't cutting Candy it's not finding a replacement unless he was banking on Colt Keith or Mallory all along.

I don’t know, maybe—what are the terms we’re talking about? I’m joking about the 3/50 because I don’t think Harris would sign him for that. But for 2/20, plus maybe a team option with a few million buyout? Sure, why not? It’s not as though we have any prospects definitively banging on the third base door. But it wouldn’t surprise me to see that there will be a team somewhere that will give him three years. And perhaps even the 50 million.

Plus, I have a feeling—just a hunch and nothing more—that he wouldn’t come back to Detroit even if offered 3/50.

Edited September 4, 2023 by chasfh

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

Do you want to sign him this off season ? I think Harris had already considered that and said no which factored into his decision. The fail isn't cutting Candy it's not finding a replacement unless he was banking on Colt Keith or Mallory all along.

Any feel for who we might have gotten to cover Jeimer at third this year?

[chasfh]

By the way, I just now looked it up, and for the last 28 days, Jeimer is slashing .183/.253/.390 for an OPS+ of 71. So … maybe not 2/20 plus option after all … 😁

[SeattleMike]

8 minutes ago, chasfh said:

By the way, I just now looked it up, and for the last 28 days, Jeimer is slashing .183/.253/.390 for an OPS+ of 71. So … maybe not 2/20 plus option after all … 😁

They can't all be Miggy I guess. In his prime with the Tigers, 2008-2016, Cabrera had one month below a 100 OPS+ (93 in 2015) and an additional three months below 110 OPS+. He had only four months in a 9-year period where he had an OPS below 800. Remarkable consistency. 

[SoCalTiger]

57 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Any feel for who we might have gotten to cover Jeimer at third this year?

I don't think Harris had any one player in mind when he non tendered Candy but rather was willing to have the position open to "audition" multiple players from the minor leagues, wire pick ups and possible trades which is what happened but none of them stuck unfortunately. 

 

 

[SoCalTiger]

59 minutes ago, chasfh said:

By the way, I just now looked it up, and for the last 28 days, Jeimer is slashing .183/.253/.390 for an OPS+ of 71. So … maybe not 2/20 plus option after all … 😁

That's going to hurt his wallet this off season and speaks to his inconsistency. 

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

And I really dislike this "working the count" philosophy. I've known for 50 years that players have a higher BA with a 2-0 count over an 0-2 count. It's common, basic baseball.

Over the years I become more persuaded that more batters fail because of what they don't swing at rather than what they do, especially after watching Cabrera for 10 yrs. And I think it's doubly true against good pitching. Your goal should be to never take a strike you can hit looking for a better one, you probably won't get it and now you are down in the count. It's the part of what Ted Williams said years ago that is now the most ignored part. His first admonition when you got your pitch was "Don't take it"

Edited September 5, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

Sometimes a hitter decides he's first-pitch swinging only at a pitch with a specific shape in a specific place and will let everything else go, which makes sense because when you're swinging first pitch, you're not looking for contact, you wanna let er rip and that works out only if the pitch is in your happy zone. Otherwise, called strike one. Sometimes a pitch fools a hitter, if he's thinking breaking ball and they bring the heat in there instead, hitter's gonna get caught. Called strike two. You can adjust to the breaking ball, but not to gas, and you can't be sitting gas all the time because then you'll get beat on yakkers. It's a guessing game that good hitters can adjust to better than bad hitters. Get good hitters and this control the zone philosophy might work better. Until it's proven not to work with good hitters, it's probably worth a try. I'm down.

[Tiger337]

3 hours ago, chasfh said:

By the way, I just now looked it up, and for the last 28 days, Jeimer is slashing .183/.253/.390 for an OPS+ of 71. So … maybe not 2/20 plus option after all … 😁

Pretty much like Matt Chapman in May, June and August.  Not the best contract year, altough his overall numbers are still pretty good.  

[gehringer_2]

6 hours ago, chasfh said:

Sometimes a hitter decides he's first-pitch swinging only at a pitch with a specific shape in a specific place and will let everything else go, which makes sense because when you're swinging first pitch, you're not looking for contact, you wanna let er rip and that works out only if the pitch is in your happy zone. Otherwise, called strike one. Sometimes a pitch fools a hitter, if he's thinking breaking ball and they bring the heat in there instead, hitter's gonna get caught. Called strike two. You can adjust to the breaking ball, but not to gas, and you can't be sitting gas all the time because then you'll get beat on yakkers. It's a guessing game that good hitters can adjust to better than bad hitters. Get good hitters and this control the zone philosophy might work better. Until it's proven not to work with good hitters, it's probably worth a try. I'm down.

as an example, Torkelson's  OPS ahead of the count is 1100, behind its 505. The cost of taking a strike early in the count looking for something better is quite high for him - although ironically in his case his OPS swinging at 1st pitchers is poor also (500 again), which could indicate he's over-swinging at the pitches he does like early - which is what the eye test tends to.

Edited September 5, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

Tork has his moments, but he is also still green and not yet fully formed. If he’s persistently like this a couple of years from now, I’ll get worried about him.

[casimir]

17 hours ago, casimir said:

Short and sweet, Harris had a lot of tasks ahead of him.  He hasn’t been perfect and there’s still a lot more to do.   Overall I think he has the organization going in the right direction, but time will tell.

I think this off-season needs to be a bit different than last season.  I think last year was about raising the floor of the 40 man depth chart.  I think this off-season is more about plugging holes at the major league level.

I'll add this:  Way back when, Harris mentioned earmarking playing time for younger players.  Yet, there are lockers for Nevin & Ibanez in Detroit while Malloy & Keith are still in Toledo.

[chasfh]

It’s all part of the plan.