Evaluate Scott Harris' first year

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Of course you can never have to much pitching, but my guess is that they won't budget much for a 2nd starter signing (though I won't complain if they do!)  because they expect Mize to be effective and no team wants to put 9 figures into a 6th starter. Turnbull's ambiguous status also adds to the uncertainty in the mix - if i they part company with him in the off season you would think that would increase the chances they'd be willing spend for two starters.

If they have a chance to get a starter worthy of nine figures, I would hope they don't back off because they already have five starters and Olson is one of their starters.  Who knows though?  I wouldn't be surprised if Harris and Hinch are planning to patch together a staff with bullpen days and swing men.   

Edited September 10, 2023 by Tiger337

[Tenacious D]

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Of course you can never have to much pitching, but my guess is that they won't budget much for a 2nd starter signing (though I won't complain if they do!)  because they expect Mize to be effective and no team wants to put 9 figures into a 6th starter. Turnbull's ambiguous status also adds to the uncertainty in the mix - if they part company with him in the off season you would think that would increase the chances they'd be willing spend for two starters.

I think they go after a Lorenzen-type, as depth and/or potential trade bait.

[alex]

9 hours ago, casimir said:

I would probably take a little exception with what was mentioned about position players.

I don't think we'll see additional roster spots and/or reduced games anytime soon.  That's added cost and/or reduced revenue.  Ain't happening.

I understand what you are saying with the day-to-day lineup and position players.  But the Tigers might actually be closer to what used to be than we think...

 

Yes, there is all the revenue, etc.  that goes into this thinking to keep rosters at 26 (which BTW way recently expanded from 25)... but in time it will change. It may take 5-10 years but as we learn more about physiology and related topics science will see that a peak conditioned athlete (and the players today are as such as compared to 20, 30+ years ago... and always exceptions mind you) simply will need more time off to recover from the max efforts they give in practice, pre-game, games, not too mention even off-season training, etc.

Fans are not going to want to 'pay' to see a team in a series if their favorite players are injured ex MTrout and Ohtani for LAA. The players simply need extra rest. As they get older it becomes more prevalent. I have heard AJ talk about some of this. The team trainers are learning more and more about it. This may simply mean playing maybe 5 days a week instead of 6 or 7. Having two days off in a row. This would help.

The mounting injuries are the proof of this. A peak conditioned athlete,  less body fat, more muscle, more fast & slow twitch muscle fiber explosion, more trauma when diving on plays, HBP, etc. not to mention the sport specific training is overall very  taxing to the system (especially ligament and tendon where are knowledge hopefully sooner or later will gain insight. We do know a bit about muscle though). Rest and nutrition is of utmost importance.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, alex said:

Yes, there is all the revenue, etc.  that goes into this thinking to keep rosters at 26 (which BTW way recently expanded from 25)... but in time it will change. It may take 5-10 years but as we learn more about physiology and related topics science will see that a peak conditioned athlete (and the players today are as such as compared to 20, 30+ years ago... and always exceptions mind you) simply will need more time off to recover from the max efforts they give in practice, pre-game, games, not too mention even off-season training, etc.

Fans are not going to want to 'pay' to see a team in a series if their favorite players are injured ex MTrout and Ohtani for LAA. The players simply need extra rest. As they get older it becomes more prevalent. I have heard AJ talk about some of this. The team trainers are learning more and more about it. This may simply mean playing maybe 5 days a week instead of 6 or 7. Having two days off in a row. This would help.

The mounting injuries are the proof of this. A peak conditioned athlete,  less body fat, more muscle, more fast & slow twitch muscle fiber explosion, more trauma when diving on plays, HBP, etc. not to mention the sport specific training is overall very  taxing to the system (especially ligament and tendon where are knowledge hopefully sooner or later will gain insight. We do know a bit about muscle though). Rest and nutrition is of utmost importance.

You know, one thing just occurred to me.  Over the past few decades, the proportion of the active roster seems to have gotten higher on the noticed side and lower on the position player side.  I think back to 1984 when active rosters were I think only 24 players.  But the Tigers used only something like 13 or 14 pitchers on the season.  Granted, they won the World Series on a good roster.

The game has definitely evolved over time.  I’m not sure it’s evolved in a great way.  I know several around here have talked about deadening the baseball in the hopes of getting more pitching rather than throwing.  It’d be interesting to see that alternate reality to see how that would affect game play, pitching injuries, roster composition, etc, etc.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, alex said:

Yes, there is all the revenue, etc.  that goes into this thinking to keep rosters at 26 (which BTW way recently expanded from 25)... but in time it will change. It may take 5-10 years but as we learn more about physiology and related topics science will see that a peak conditioned athlete (and the players today are as such as compared to 20, 30+ years ago... and always exceptions mind you) simply will need more time off to recover from the max efforts they give in practice, pre-game, games, not too mention even off-season training, etc.

Fans are not going to want to 'pay' to see a team in a series if their favorite players are injured ex MTrout and Ohtani for LAA. The players simply need extra rest. As they get older it becomes more prevalent. I have heard AJ talk about some of this. The team trainers are learning more and more about it. This may simply mean playing maybe 5 days a week instead of 6 or 7. Having two days off in a row. This would help.

The mounting injuries are the proof of this. A peak conditioned athlete,  less body fat, more muscle, more fast & slow twitch muscle fiber explosion, more trauma when diving on plays, HBP, etc. not to mention the sport specific training is overall very  taxing to the system (especially ligament and tendon where are knowledge hopefully sooner or later will gain insight. We do know a bit about muscle though). Rest and nutrition is of utmost importance.

The assumption here is that management cares, hard to see how they do considering the already stunning wastage rates for pitchers and total lack of any institutional response from baseball to date. Coming from a heavy industry background I like to joke that if OSHA regulated baseball, pitching would have been outlawed decades ago. It's jest yet it's true that pitchers suffer predictable rates of injury that would be completely unacceptable in any normal workplace. And while many of them do get 10s or 100s of millions of $$ in ransom for their UCL's, many who suffer those injuries without ever reaching the majors don't.

Edited September 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[alex]

18 minutes ago, casimir said:

You know, one thing just occurred to me.  Over the past few decades, the proportion of the active roster seems to have gotten higher on the noticed side and lower on the position player side.  I think back to 1984 when active rosters were I think only 24 players.  But the Tigers used only something like 13 or 14 pitchers on the season.  Granted, they won the World Series on a good roster.

The game has definitely evolved over time.  I’m not sure it’s evolved in a great way.  I know several around here have talked about deadening the baseball in the hopes of getting more pitching rather than throwing.  It’d be interesting to see that alternate reality to see how that would affect game play, pitching injuries, roster composition, etc, etc.

Yes, agree with most all of this. Heck, I remember the Oakland A's one year went into the post season during the mid 1970s with only eight pitchers and won it all.

Of course back then there was only one playoff round and the WS.

I had not thought much about a/the more deadened ball - but that makes sense as well.

[chasfh]

I doubt any organization sets a strategic course to try to win pennants with a roster made up primarily of utility players, and I don’t think the Tigers or Scott Harris or even A.J. Hinch are any different. I don’t believe anyone in the game sees a team of utility players as a way to win by zagging while everyone else is zigging. We want everyday regulars to help us win pennants, same as everyone else wants, but we’re simply not in a position as an organization to effectively make that happen yet. The rot went very deep and it was always going to take more than a single season to fix it all and start winning rings.

I think we can reasonably complain about still having to be in this boat seven years after starting a failed rebuild, and I think we can reasonably moan about having to have so many of those players on the roster at all, and groan at seeing them flail around and lose games more than we would like. I don’t think we can reasonably blame Harris and Hinch for torpedoing our chances to win a pennant this year by being too cute signing a roster of AAAA utility guys and playing million-billion-D chess moving them all over the field, instead of signing and trading for a roster full of All-Star bats. That’s just where the Tigers are in 2023, and it’s probably not going to be a lot a lot better next year. But I think it will get better after that, and if it doesn’t, then something else is going wrong.

[Edman85]

Question: is Mookie Betts a utility player? Why is multiple position capability a perjorative?

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That’s just where the Tigers are in 2023, and it’s probably not going to be a lot a lot better next year. But I think it will get better after that, and if it doesn’t, then something else is going wrong.

Their off-season todo list isn't that bad this time. They have to sign or replace ERod, and a second arm would be nice. I think I might like to see Holton compete for a back end starting job which would let them look more for relief help - esp since Alexander and Faedo both can fill the long relief role. Torkelson, Greene and Carpenter have emerged as bona fide MLB hitters, that puts them 3 bodies ahead of where they were coming into 2023. If at least one more out of the group of Meadows, Malloy, Keith, Perez, Bigbie end up as legitimate bats, that puts them 2 hitters away from a better team than the Twins or anyone else in the Central can field.

One starter, one starter/reliever, and two hitters in one off-season should not be a bar too high for a front office with virtually zero existing payroll constraints.

Edited September 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

Weird, double post

Edited September 11, 2023 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

13 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Question: is Mookie Betts a utility player? Why is multiple position capability a perjorative?

To me there is no downside to players being *able* to play multiple positions, the downside is when players are moved around so much you never get to a point where you have a cohesive defensive unit where everyone knows everyone else's tendencies,  you stop getting communication breakdown misplays, and OF's get a chance to learn the field details at all the ball parks they have to play in. I believe there is a cross over point of decreasing returns where the search for the last marginal offensive advantage becomes counterproductive for these reasons.

Edited September 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[chasfh]

11 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

Question: is Mookie Betts a utility player? Why is multiple position capability a perjorative?

Maybe this is semantics, but I think of Mookie as more of a unicorn than a utility player. Only a handful of guys in history that good at so many places. Craig Biggio was one. Ben Zobrist and Tony Phillips were a couple others. Heck, Mookie might be the greatest true multi-positional player of all time.

[chasfh]

14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Their off-season todo list isn't that bad this time. They have to sign or replace ERod, and a second arm would be nice. I think I might like to see Holton compete for a back end starting job which would let them look more for relief help - esp since Alexander and Faedo both can fill the long relief role. Torkelson, Greene and Carpenter have emerged as bone fide MLB hitters, that puts them 3 bodies ahead of where they were coming into 2023. If at least one more out of the group of Meadows, Malloy, Keith, Perez, Bigbie end up as legitimate bats, that puts them 2 hitters away from a better team than the Twins or anyone else in the Central can field.

One starter, one starter/reliever, and two hitters in one off-season should not be a bar too high for a front office with virtually zero existing payroll constraints.

I hope it’s not that bad this time! If it is then that means no progress! We definitely have guys taking a step forward, and we should have a few more do so next year. I don’t think we’ll be able to plug in a free agent at the top of the market though, possibly excepting another pitcher, since the Tigers have been establishing a reputation for advancing careers on the mound. We’re probably looking at one-year guys once again, especially at the plate.

FWIW, I talked to someone recently who’s regularly in the Tigers press box and he thinks the consensus there is that Eduardo will be allowed to walk.

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Maybe this is semantics, but I think of Mookie as more of a unicorn than a utility player. Only a handful of guys in history that good at so many places. Craig Biggio was one. Ben Zobrist and Tony Phillips were a couple others. Heck, Mookie might be the greatest true multi-positional player of all time.

Robin Yount split his career between CF and SS, won a gold glove at one, silvers sluggers at both, an MVP at both positions, and got himself to the HOF. No slouch there.

Edited September 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[HeyAbbott]

I think a reasonable approach this off season would be to get one bonfire SP, One solid reliever, and a legitimate infield bat.Assuming ERod walks, add one SP of some caliber.

[Jim Cowan]

Let's not compare Mookie Betts to Willi and Harold.

[oblong]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Robin Yount split his career between CF and SS, won a gold glove at one, silvers sluggers at both, an MVP at both positions, and got himself to the HOF. No slouch there.

And was probably a better motorcross rider and golfer than SS or OF. 

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

FWIW, I talked to someone recently who’s regularly in the Tigers press box and he thinks the consensus there is that Eduardo will be allowed to walk.

Does that mean to the point the Tigers wouldn't sign him if he was willing or just that they won't go out of their way to if they can spend comparable (or less) money on comparable value elsewhere?

Otherwise, probably all we can say about Eduardo is that Eduardo is gonna do Eduardo and if it doesn't make too much sense to anyone else, too bad.

Edited September 11, 2023 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

33 minutes ago, oblong said:

And was probably a better motorcross rider and golfer than SS or OF. 

People like this drive me crazy.  They are good at multiple endeavors, and I'm still struggling to find one thing for myself.

[lordstanley]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Robin Yount split his career between CF and SS, won a gold glove at one, silvers sluggers at both, an MVP at both positions, and got himself to the HOF. No slouch there.

He even had multiple last names. To almost everyone he was Robin Yount. To George Kell he was Robin Yunt. 

[Tiger337]

 

4 hours ago, Edman85 said:

Question: is Mookie Betts a utility player? Why is multiple position capability a perjorative?

Tony Phillips is another example, but how many players can play multiple positions well and also hit at a high level? Most utility players are utility players because they don't hit well enough to be regulars or because they are not elite at any one position.  And if someone can hit and is above average at a specific position, is it a good trade off to start moving him around to positions where he doesn't field as well for the sake of versatility?  I also think a lot of regulars are reluctant to move around to different positions.  Many are even finnicky about where they bat in the order.  

[casimir]

5 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

 

Tony Phillips is another example, but how many players can play multiple positions well and also hit at a high level? Most utility players are utility players because they don't hit well enough to be regulars or because they are not elite at any one position.  And if someone can hit and is above average at a specific position, is it a good trade off to start moving him around to positions where he doesn't field as well for the sake of versatility?  I also think a lot of regulars are reluctant to move around to different positions.  Many are even finnicky about where they bat in the order.  

Phillips & Zobrist & 2023 Betts are the exception, not the rule.

I can understand to a point why Hinch is trying the versatility this season.  They've got a bad roster, including a part time DH that cannot contribute anything to the field.  So, I get having a few set starters and then trying to mix & match elsewhere.  It probably is a bit overblown at times, but along with the lack of talent, they're trying to see if anything clicks with any of the guys that they have.

Now, hopefully that calms down next season.  Hopefully there are a few more quality players on the roster that are worthy of being the primary player at one single position.  I think @gehringer_2 mentioned that there is probably a tipping point between defensive versatility and defensive confusion/inefficiency.  There have certainly been times this season where you wonder if they've gotten past that point.

[Edman85]

I went down current year fwar leaders. Isaac Paredes has spent a lot of time at 1b, 2b, 3b. Cody Bellenger has played 1b and cf depending on who is available. Ha sung Kim 2b/3b/ss. The aforementioned Betts. Nico Hoerner has played some ss this year. Corbin Carroll has spent a lot of time at all three outfield positions. Thairo Estrada plays all over. I could go on...

Edited September 12, 2023 by Edman85

[Tiger337]

21 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I went down current year fwar leaders. Isaac Paredes has spent a lot of time at 1b, 2b, 3b. Cody Bellenger has played 1b and cf depending on who is available. Ha sung Kim 2b/3b/ss. The aforementioned Betts. Nico Hoerner has played some ss this year. Corbin Carroll has spent a lot of time at all three outfield positions. Thairo Estrada plays all over. I could go on...

It will be interesting to see how many of those guys continue to move around next year now that they are more established. 

Anyway, they are all good players, so I don't think fans would complain if they were in Detroit.  I think the complaint about the Tigers is that their multi-position guys are not good players.  Maton and McKinstry playing all over the place is not being done because it's a smart new baseball move.  They play all over the place, because they don't have anything better and they making the most of what they have.  I am pretty sure Harris and Hinch would love to have allstars playing at 2B and 3B every day rather than positional flexibility.  

[Jim Cowan]

25 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I went down current year fwar leaders. Isaac Paredes has spent a lot of time at 1b, 2b, 3b. Cody Bellenger has played 1b and cf depending on who is available. Ha sung Kim 2b/3b/ss. The aforementioned Betts. Nico Hoerner has played some ss this year. Corbin Carroll has spent a lot of time at all three outfield positions. Thairo Estrada plays all over. I could go on...

Those guys though are not Willi and Harold or Niko Goodrum.  Niko was the poster child, indifferent defense at 7 positions, and a switch hitter who couldn't hit at all from the left side.  Good players who can play well at several  spots are nice to have, but I don't remember the Tigers having any since Tony Phillips and Skeeter Barnes.  Lots of guys play 1B/OF, or SS/2B, that's very common.

Nobody is saying that versatility is bad.  A couple of people though are saying that "chess pieces" should not be a development objective.  The objective is every day players.  Maybe they play 140 games now instead of 160, but they are every day players.