Evaluate Scott Harris' first year

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

I went down current year fwar leaders. Isaac Paredes has spent a lot of time at 1b, 2b, 3b. Cody Bellenger has played 1b and cf depending on who is available. Ha sung Kim 2b/3b/ss. The aforementioned Betts. Nico Hoerner has played some ss this year. Corbin Carroll has spent a lot of time at all three outfield positions. Thairo Estrada plays all over. I could go on...

Paredes moves around a lot less than our Tiger wanderers. He has played in 125 games, 103 of them he's been at 3b - 81 times a complete game there.

Vierling's  most common spot appears to be RF with 48 appearances, McKinstry even less in one place than that.

TBF, a lot of my frustration around the constant position shuffling is that no-one in the cast of thousands can actually play 3rd at a respectable MLB level, so moving more guys through there just seems to highlight futility. For a few games Vierling looked pretty decent there but ulitmately was exposed just like rest have been.    /...sigh.../

Edited September 12, 2023 by gehringer_2

[casimir]

Well, OK, maybe the only way to truly test the versatility thing is to go acquire Ha-Seong Kim, put him at the top of the lineup, and see how he is deployed defensively.

[alex]

9 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

Nobody is saying that versatility is bad.  A couple of people though are saying that "chess pieces" should not be a development objective.  The objective is every day players.  Maybe they play 140 games now instead of 160, but they are every day players.

All observations IMHO 'Spot on' - especially the last sentence in regards to 'most' everyday players these days (unfortunately) 👍 .

[chasfh]

20 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Does that mean to the point the Tigers wouldn't sign him if he was willing or just that they won't go out of their way to if they can spend comparable (or less) money on comparable value elsewhere?

Otherwise, probably all we can say about Eduardo is that Eduardo is gonna do Eduardo and if it doesn't make too much sense to anyone else, too bad.

I’m thinking it’s to the point where they would let him go and take their chances on replacing him on the open market, since he indicated he’d be surprised if, consider Eduardo’s particular brand of being Eduardo since he’s been here, this front office were to throw extra years at him.

[oblong]

28 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I’m thinking it’s to the point where they would let him go and take their chances on replacing him on the open market, since he indicated he’d be surprised if, consider Eduardo’s particular brand of being Eduardo since he’s been here, this front office were to throw extra years at him.

I also think that it's not out of the realm of possibility that Harris looks at the deadline deal shenanigans, if that's what they were, and wants to be done with that.  If all things being equal is at play then making the boss look bad can be a deal breaker.

 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I’m thinking it’s to the point where they would let him go and take their chances on replacing him on the open market, since he indicated he’d be surprised if, consider Eduardo’s particular brand of being Eduardo since he’s been here, this front office were to throw extra years at him.

 

37 minutes ago, oblong said:

I also think that it's not out of the realm of possibility that Harris looks at the deadline deal shenanigans, if that's what they were, and wants to be done with that.  If all things being equal is at play then making the boss look bad can be a deal breaker.

 

I think if one of the issues occurred, it might be reconcilable.  But I don't expect the Tigers to pursue an extension after both things occurred.  He's opting out.  He will go his way, and the Tigers will go their way.

[chasfh]

41 minutes ago, casimir said:

 

I think if one of the issues occurred, it might be reconcilable.  But I don't expect the Tigers to pursue an extension after both things occurred.  He's opting out.  He will go his way, and the Tigers will go their way.

I think this is the overwhelming favorite, but then it becomes Scott Harris's responsibility to make up the difference in performance with a replacement, and irrespective of the challenges of bringing a top-level free agent pitcher to a perennial 90-loss team, he will be judged harshly for it if he does not.

[Tiger337]

The Tigers really need to sign a couple of starters if Rodriguez is not coming back.  I am not concerned whether he is a difficult person.  I am only interested in his talent, like Jack Morris and Doyle Alexandr.  

[Tiger337]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think this is the overwhelming favorite, but then it becomes Scott Harris's responsibility to make up the difference in performance with a replacement, and irrespective of the challenges of bringing a top-level free agent pitcher to a perennial 90-loss team, he will be judged harshly for it if he does not.

Yes, after he failed to trade him, if he let's him go and doesn't get a replacement, it will be viewed as a failure.  Few fans don't care about the inner workings of the front office.  

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The Tigers really need to sign a couple of starters if Rodriguez is not coming back.  I am not concerned whether he is a difficult person.  I am only interested in his talent, like Jack Morris and Doyle Alexandr.  

There are different types of difficult people. Some people who are regarded as difficult are simply unpleasant to be around. In that way, Barry Bonds and Reggie Jackson were difficult people. Eduardo's difficulty was the type that affected both the product on the field (by his absence; by his refusal to follow team direction on PitchCom), and the business of multiple organizations (by leading them on to the last minute during the trade deadline). That's a line the front office may draw.

If Eduardo does leave, I think I'd be surprised to see teams willing to give him five or six years at 20+ per. I wouldn't be surprised to see that his behavior during the past couple of years has really hurt his market. OTOH, all it takes is one team to ignore all that.

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

There are different types of difficult people. Some people who are regarded as difficult are simply unpleasant to be around. In that way, Barry Bonds and Reggie Jackson were difficult people. Eduardo's difficulty was the type that affected both the product on the field (by his absence; by his refusal to follow team direction on PitchCom), and the business of multiple organizations (by leading them on to the last minute during the trade deadline). That's a line the front office may draw.

 

Maybe so, but he's still the best player on the team this year and his track record is good.  

I still don't see why rejecting the trade makes him a bad person.  He has a right to do go or stay and even to change his mind at the last minute.  If everybody did business like MLB and someone traded me from my job, I certainly wouldn't care about inconveniencing those who tried to trade me. 

[chasfh]

10 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Maybe so, but he's still the best player on the team this year and his track record is good.  

I still don't see why rejecting the trade makes him a bad person.  He has a right to do go or stay and even to change his mind at the last minute.  If everybody did business like MLB and someone traded me from my job, I certainly wouldn't care about inconveniencing those who tried to trade me. 

Who said he was a bad person? Aren't we talking about difficult people?

You are right that he has the right to reject a done deal at the last second—there's no law that says he must accept it, just as there is no law that organizations must ignore his doing so, or ignore his other behaviors, when considering whether to commit multiple years and nine figures to him.

Edited September 12, 2023 by chasfh

[Tiger337]

5 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Who said he was a bad person?

When the trade didn't go through and the story about how it happened came out, you called him a weasel.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

When the trade didn't go through and the story about how it happened came out, you called him a weasel.

I think he was a weasel in that moment for what he did. I still think that. I don't think that makes him a bad person overall, because I know him only from his behaviors as reported by the media so I don't know him as a person.

[Cruzer1]

49 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The Tigers really need to sign a couple of starters if Rodriguez is not coming back.  I am not concerned whether he is a difficult person.  I am only interested in his talent, like Jack Morris and Doyle Alexandr.  

I think the Tigers are deep enough to go at it, unless they can find a similar deal like Lorenzen. Right now, I can see them starting with Skubal, Manning, Mize, Olson, and Gipson-Long. Madden and Flores for depth. Jobe and Melton would be next, probably in Erie.

[Tiger337]

7 minutes ago, Cruzer1 said:

I think the Tigers are deep enough to go at it, unless they can find a similar deal like Lorenzen. Right now, I can see them starting with Skubal, Manning, Mize, Olson, and Gipson-Long. Madden and Flores for depth. Jobe and Melton would be next, probably in Erie.

I don't have any faith that they'll get five good healthy pitchers from that crew.  I hope they sign a couple of starters.  I'd like to see Olson and Long as part of the depth rather than two pitchers on which they rely.  

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tiger337

[SoCalTiger]

34 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Maybe so, but he's still the best player on the team this year and his track record is good.  

I still don't see why rejecting the trade makes him a bad person.  He has a right to do go or stay and even to change his mind at the last minute.  If everybody did business like MLB and someone traded me from my job, I certainly wouldn't care about inconveniencing those who tried to trade me. 

Even if you already said yes and then at the last minute said no unless you give me 20 million more ? It's his right but there is a moral "code" of keeping your word. I do not know if that happened but Harris and Friedman both thought it was approved and LA really got screwed as they now count Lance -home run Lynn as their third playoff starter. 

 

[Tiger337]

11 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Even if you already said yes and then at the last minute said no unless you give me 20 million more ? It's his right but there is a moral "code" of keeping your word. I do not know if that happened but Harris and Friedman both thought it was approved and LA really got screwed as they now count Lance -home run Lynn as their third playoff starter. 

 

I don't know what's true and I don't take Rosenthal's story as gospel.  I think it's more likely Rodriguez changed his mind and said no and then his agent said, "what if we can get them to extend it another year?". 

In the end though, I just want the Tigers to have a good pitcher on their team.  

Edit: Second edit made no sense, so I erased it!

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Tiger337

[chasfh]

One way or another, we will have a good idea of what the Tigers think of Eduardo Rodriguez well before spring training starts.

[gehringer_2]

36 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't know what's true and I don't take Rosenthal's story as gospel.  I think it's more likely Rodriguez changed his mind and said no and then his agent said, "what if we can get them to extend it another year?". 

In the end though, I just want the Tigers to have a good pitcher on their team.  

Edit: Second edit made no sense, so I erased it!

 

This is the thing. Communication is always a two way street and we have zero actual facts as to how clear everyone had actually made their positions to each other vs how much other people were making assumptions. I was less than today years old when I figured out that unsupported assumptions by management are pretty much par for the course everywhere there are managers. 

[mtutiger]

25 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This is the thing. Communication is always a two way street and we have zero actual facts as to how clear everyone had actually made their positions to each other vs how much other people were making assumptions. I was less than today years old when I figured out that unsupported assumptions by management are pretty much par for the course everywhere there are managers. 

Even so, there's been a lot of "unsupported assumptions" about what management did or didn't do as far as a Plan B for Eduardo rejecting a trade, or even that there existed much of a market past the Dodgers for his services.

All questions we don't know - when you add the opt-out and the absence last year, people should be open to the idea that maybe the Dodgers were the only alternative that made sense.

Edited September 12, 2023 by mtutiger

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Cruzer1 said:

I think the Tigers are deep enough to go at it, unless they can find a similar deal like Lorenzen. Right now, I can see them starting with Skubal, Manning, Mize, Olson, and Gipson-Long. Madden and Flores for depth. Jobe and Melton would be next, probably in Erie.

Ain't deep enough.

[casimir]

16 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

All questions we don't know - when you add the opt-out and the absence last year, people should be open to the idea that maybe the Dodgers were the only alternative that made sense.

It will be interesting to see what kind of contract terms Rodriguez can get this offseason.  I wonder what other teams' perception of Rodriguez is.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

I think this is the overwhelming favorite, but then it becomes Scott Harris's responsibility to make up the difference in performance with a replacement, and irrespective of the challenges of bringing a top-level free agent pitcher to a perennial 90-loss team, he will be judged harshly for it if he does not.

Sure, Harris is going to have to fill that role in the rotation.  But does it have to be via free agency?

A lot of (fan) hopes are pinned on Carpenter/Malloy/Keith/Jung.  There's some questionable defense there.  Maybe it makes sense to move one or two of those for other players.

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, casimir said:

It will be interesting to see what kind of contract terms Rodriguez can get this offseason.  I wonder what other teams' perception of Rodriguez is.

He's a very capable left-handed starter.  Somebody will offer something at least as good as the contract he is opting out off.