Eagles at Lions

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

Is there some impact to the team's cap by virtue of what happens with his signing bonus?  I'm honestly wondering if there is a practical angle here that fans should care about.

The Lions simply cannot give Calvin Johnson money since that would be against league rules. They would have to employ him. The Lions offered to pay him his $1.6 million but he would need to make appearances. He declined and said he just wanted his money. He can go pound sand. 

I believe, and I'm not 100% certain, the Lions recouped cap space at the time by getting his signing bonus back. 

[sabretooth]

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Lions simply cannot give Calvin Johnson money since that would be against league rules. They would have to employ him. The Lions offered to pay him his $1.6 million but he would need to make appearances. He declined and said he just wanted his money. He can go pound sand. 

I believe, and I'm not 100% certain, the Lions recouped cap space at the time by getting his signing bonus back. 

I understood that they couldn't just give him money, and that Martha pulled the plug on the signing bonus....if that helped them with cap space at the time, that's something positive.  Still a PR black-eye....even though it's a business, this is not a fan base that likes to see it's star players get kicked around by management.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, sabretooth said:

I understood that they couldn't just give him money, and that Martha pulled the plug on the signing bonus....if that helped them with cap space at the time, that's something positive.  Still a PR black-eye....even though it's a business, this is not a fan base that likes to see it's star players get kicked around by management.

LOL getting kicked around. They paid him $113 million. They made him the highest paid receiver ever at the time he signed the contract. He agreed to an 8 year contract and quit halfway through and expects to get paid for the entire 8 year contract. Fuck him. I don't care if he never announces a Lions draft pick. 

[sabretooth]

I also get it that Calvin chose to skunk Sheila's very reasonable request for him to do PR for the team for the $1.6M.

I think Calvin was a total a-hole to reject that offer.

I don't personally blame Sheila for the Calvin mess, and I completely blame him for backing Sheila into a corner that Calvin's business agent had to know was the best she could do.  

It just boggles my mind that this team keeps getting itself into these messes over and over and over again.

[sabretooth]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

LOL getting kicked around. They paid him $113 million. They made him the highest paid receiver ever at the time he signed the contract. He agreed to an 8 year contract and quit halfway through and expects to get paid for the entire 8 year contract. Fuck him. I don't care if he never announces a Lions draft pick. 

I agree....I was speaking from the standpoint of the people who booed Sheila.  I thought they were jerks and a-holes for doing that, and I think Calvin was a jerk and an a-hole for doing what he did. 

The business side of the equation includes PR, and PR in Detroit means that a very sizeable share of the fan base sides against management in a controversy.  It's a hit that savvy sports owners in Detroit understand and know how to manage, even when they are jobbing the players sometimes....but the Lions have never had any idea how to manage that side of it.

[sabretooth]

My point is that competence is sorely lacking in the Lions' organization in every facet and phase.  I respect that Sheila has brought in some great people and minds into the FO, and I like them.  I am pretty much on her side personally, but for reasons that are historical and largely beyond her control now, I have nearly zero hope that she and any management team she brings on board will be able to turn it around here.  Zero.  The Fords will never escape the stink.  

Edited November 1, 2021 by sabretooth

[Motown Bombers]

9 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I agree....I was speaking from the standpoint of the people who booed Sheila.  I thought they were jerks and a-holes for doing that, and I think Calvin was a jerk and an a-hole for doing what he did. 

The business side of the equation includes PR, and PR in Detroit means that a very sizeable share of the fan base sides against management in a controversy.  It's a hit that savvy sports owners in Detroit understand and know how to manage, even when they are jobbing the players sometimes....but the Lions have never had any idea how to manage that side of it.

How exactly has this PR hit affected the Lions?

[NYLion]

I had an open mind going into the season knowing that it would be painful but I also expected progression throughout the season.

I know that key injuries have made this a tougher task but I'm seeing a team that's regressing and some players that are already tuning out the coach. I was never sure that Campbell was the right guy and never cared much for all the "rah rah" stuff at this early pressers but I will say that I'm becoming less and less sure of him being anything more than a motivator as the weeks go on. It's not only a lack of talent issue, it just has the look of a poorly coached team. I'm not saying he should be fired or anything like that but man does this guy look out of his element at times. 

[sabretooth]

33 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

How exactly has this PR hit affected the Lions?

It makes them appear incompetent.  Every bad thing can be explained away, or defended, or wished into the cornfield, but until they start winning playoff games it's another black eye that erodes the confidence of the fans, and gives everybody in the organization reason to doubt whether the ownership/management can ever get over the hump.

I know you're going to say that it doesn't matter, but your saying it doesn't matter doesn't matter any more than my saying it does.  But it's a Message Board, and this is what we don't get paid to do.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the vast majority of people who follow the Lions consider the Calvin event and the booing of Sheila to be a major embarrassment and a setback for a fledging new managing owner.

[sabretooth]

....and I will further bet you that that incident seriously eroded Sheila's desire to deliver something positive to this fan base.

It made me say "eff these bastards" to everybody involved....I cannot imagine anyone who could take that abuse and still want to bring a winner to this fan base.  

Then again, I cannot imagine any fan or fan base that would have confidence in this family of owners after 60 years of failure.

I also cannot imagine Beruit ever being a nice place to visit again after things fell apart 40 years ago.  The Lions owners and fans seem to be caught in the same mutually-destructive loop.

[Motown Bombers]

21 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

It makes them appear incompetent.  Every bad thing can be explained away, or defended, or wished into the cornfield, but until they start winning playoff games it's another black eye that erodes the confidence of the fans, and gives everybody in the organization reason to doubt whether the ownership/management can ever get over the hump.

I know you're going to say that it doesn't matter, but your saying it doesn't matter doesn't matter any more than my saying it does.  But it's a Message Board, and this is what we don't get paid to do.

I will bet you dollars to donuts that the vast majority of people who follow the Lions consider the Calvin event and the booing of Sheila to be a major embarrassment and a setback for a fledging new managing owner.

All because Calvin Johnson whined like an entitled brat. That was 5 years ago. I'm not seeing how the Calvin Johnson thing is affecting the Lions today. 

[Motown Bombers]

25 minutes ago, NYLion said:

I had an open mind going into the season knowing that it would be painful but I also expected progression throughout the season.

I know that key injuries have made this a tougher task but I'm seeing a team that's regressing and some players that are already tuning out the coach. I was never sure that Campbell was the right guy and never cared much for all the "rah rah" stuff at this early pressers but I will say that I'm becoming less and less sure of him being anything more than a motivator as the weeks go on. It's not only a lack of talent issue, it just has the look of a poorly coached team. I'm not saying he should be fired or anything like that but man does this guy look out of his element at times. 

I knew this was coming. Everyone expected the team was going to be bad, and when they are bad, they question the coach even though they are meeting expectations. 

[sabretooth]

13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

All because Calvin Johnson whined like an entitled brat. That was 5 years ago. I'm not seeing how the Calvin Johnson thing is affecting the Lions today. 

I didn't realize that it affected them at all from a PR standpoint until the stadium rained down boos on Sheila for honoring the brat (and he is a brat).

Maybe it means nothing....but I think this will keep coming back like bad lunch.

[sabretooth]

14 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I knew this was coming. Everyone expected the team was going to be bad, and when they are bad, they question the coach even though they are meeting expectations. 

I don't see how getting shellacked by the Eagles = meeting expectations.

We all expect to die someday, but it doesn't mean that we expect to be eaten alive by rabid hamsters one slow bite at a time on national TV.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I didn't realize that it affected them at all from a PR standpoint until the stadium rained down boos on Sheila for honoring the brat (and he is a brat).

Maybe it means nothing....but I think this will keep coming back like bad lunch.

I'm pretty sure she would have gotten booed regardless. Either way, they all paid her money to boo her so it looks like she got the last laugh. 

[TP_Fan]

2 hours ago, sabretooth said:

It's too early to tell whether Sheila has made good decisions or not.  I cannot possibly give her the benefit of the doubt since she either (a) has no track record to speak of and/or (b) she was or should have been influential with ownership decisions before she was publicly handed the reins, and therefore she is responsible to some extent for the current mess going back some indeterminate period of time.

All I know is that every f'ing member of the Ford family who has tried to make decisions about this organization has been a complete and utter historic-level screw-up.  Why the hell should anyone give any member of this family the benefit of the doubt until they prove they can bring a level of success?

Sheila is her own person. I don’t tie her to mom or dad at all.  She will have her own legacy.  It will either be the person who continued the misery or the fortune changer.  She gutted what her mom did and has started over.  It may work, it may not.  But I’ll give the benefit of the doubt because she didn’t maintain status quo.  

[Motown Bombers]

Rams just aren't a fan of draft picks. 

 

[1984Echoes]

12 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

... even 1-16 ...is forgivable, and an acceptable start to the regime given how completely devoid of talent the roster is, combined with the injuries to their best players.

0-17 though is an absolute regime killer, right or wrong. It would just be so hard to come back from that....

I don't see the difference, with regards to the current admin (both coaches and Admin). I don't agree with this.

IMO, regardless of the record, even if 0-17... both coaches and admin will get a couple of years to (A) fix the talent level of the team and (B) Coach them up.

I watched Sundays game (as much as I could stomach) and Goff's plentiful errors shouldn't land on the coaches; Swift lining up on the line instead of off... is that coaching, or Swift making a mental error? Same with 10 men on the field: coaches, or did a player screw up? A lot of the mental errors or hitting the wrong gap, etc.: coaches, or inferior players making mistakes? And to someone else's point: Campbell feels like he has to take extra aggressive measures (all the 4th down attempts, instead of a few that should have been points (FG's) taken) due to the inferior roster.

There are some mental or other coaching errors... but I think they get the same two years to fix all of those as the Admin gets to fix the roster.

IMO.

[sabretooth]

26 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

I'm pretty sure she would have gotten booed regardless. Either way, they all paid her money to boo her so it looks like she got the last laugh. 

Ha....if I were Sheila I'd use the $$ to install shock-seats....looking at recent attendance, she may have already done this

[Sports_Freak]

 

[sabretooth]

14 minutes ago, TP_Fan said:

Sheila is her own person. I don’t tie her to mom or dad at all.  She will have her own legacy.  It will either be the person who continued the misery or the fortune changer.  She gutted what her mom did and has started over.  It may work, it may not.  But I’ll give the benefit of the doubt because she didn’t maintain status quo.  

Fair enough....I don't have anything against her....she seems to have ideas and energy.  Hopefully she can be the one to move this forward.  I don't have any confidence but it's because I need to see results before I ever have confidence again.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, RedRamage said:

I honestly liked going for it on 4th down.  The team needed a major spark and I didn't think going into half time 17-3 was going to make them think: "Hey, we're in this... just keep getting those FGs and we'll lick them Eagles!"

On the other hand, if you convert that 4th down, and then you push and get a TD, that's something to build on.  Then it's 17-7 and you can say: "Hey, we had a horrible half... we let them push us around too much, but we stood up tall at the end... let's go out and do more of that!"

A FG consolation prize at the end of the half just doesn't seem like a motivator to me.

Having said that, I HATED that they went empty backfield and shotgun.  That lets the defense automatically not have to worry about a heavy push at the line.  That I thought was a big mistake.

The more general point raised by D Karch this morning is was the time. They were down to roughly 1 play (13sec?). So throw it into the end zone or kick it should have been the choices. If they had made the sneak where does that leave them? They still have to kick or take a shot into the end zone. IOW the clock was the bigger constraint than getting the 1st down.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

 

I know people like to say they haven't won a game without Stafford in 10 years for the shock value, but he went 8.5 straight seasons without missing a single game. 

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

The more general point raised by D Karch this morning is was the time. They were down to roughly 1 play (13sec?). So throw it into the end zone or kick it should have been the choices. If they had made the sneak where does that leave them? They still have to kick or take a shot into the end zone. IOW the clock was the bigger constraint than getting the 1st down.

I do believe they were trying to throw into the end zone but the pass rush got there. They still had a timeout so they could have ran to convert, taken the timeout and had a chance for one shot at the end zone. If they missed that end zone shot, they could have kicked the FG. 

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, RedRamage said:

Well, it depends on how the analytics are done of course.  Are you looking at all teams or just the Lions? Are you looking at more modern era or older games?  And of course, the more narrow the focus, the more accurate it might be in terms of matching your team/situation, but it also means that there's more room for noise causing the results to be imperfect.

And I think we also need to know how much value is being put on analytics vs. observation.  Is Campbell looking at a situation and letting analytics overrule all other advice from his staff?  If so, that's bad.  Or is it just one more data point used in the decision making?  If so, that's probably good... depending on how much weight that data point is and how good the analytics team is.

All true. I guess what triggered me was the way it was put: "Campbell has a guy that tells him when to go for 4th down." Well no, Campbell may have a guy that gives him an overview of what the most common outcomes in a situation may be, but Campbell better be doing all the things you describe and using that as one factor in a more complex decision analysis and not just nodding his head!