Week Three: Atlanta Falcons (2-0) @ Detroit Lions (1-1)

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, buddha said:

the bigger question is whether they believe in hendon hooker.

who hasn't played a down

Edited September 25, 2023 by gehringer_2

[NYLion]

20 minutes ago, buddha said:

the bigger question is whether they believe in hendon hooker.

you have goff for next year and - if you want - the year after on a tag if you want to pay it.  should be enough time to evaluate whether hooker is anything more than a backup qb.

I don't think Hooker is even in the conversation tbh unless Goff goes down with injury and Hooker sets the world on fire. That's the only way I see Hooker getting games unless Goff has an unforeseen meltdown.

Goff is their guy and he should be. Ever since Lynn was canned and the playbook opened up, Goff has 45 TDs and 11 INTs over the last season and a half and he's now leading a winning team going 10-3 in his last 13. I think it's getting to the point where it's a matter of "when" on the extension not "if" so IMO, do it sooner than later. He seems like a safe bet to continue playing well in THIS offense with the way the team is built around him so just get him locked up now.

4 years $180M with $95M guaranteed or something in that ballpark. That's roughly a $14M aav increase from his current contract which considering cap inflation is manageable.

[buddha]

19 minutes ago, NYLion said:

I don't think Hooker is even in the conversation tbh unless Goff goes down with injury and Hooker sets the world on fire. That's the only way I see Hooker getting games unless Goff has an unforeseen meltdown.

Goff is their guy and he should be. Ever since Lynn was canned and the playbook opened up, Goff has 45 TDs and 11 INTs over the last season and a half and he's now leading a winning team going 10-3 in his last 13. I think it's getting to the point where it's a matter of "when" on the extension not "if" so IMO, do it sooner than later. He seems like a safe bet to continue playing well in THIS offense with the way the team is built around him so just get him locked up now.

4 years $180M with $95M guaranteed or something in that ballpark. That's roughly a $14M aav increase from his current contract which considering cap inflation is manageable.

hooker isnt going to play this year unless goff and bridgewater get hurt.  we'll find out what they think about him next year in training camp.  does he look good?  does he look like a poor man's justin fields?

we wont know until next year.

[sagnam]

13 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Their coach doesn't agree. Said it shoulda been spiked;

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/kevin-oconnell-vikings-clock-management-kirk-cousins/88bb4574fc0d11780051b1d1

 

Their coach is saying a lot.
 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38483311/home-crowd-noise-hinders-vikings-final-offensive-playcall

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, sagnam said:

Their coach is saying a lot.
 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38483311/home-crowd-noise-hinders-vikings-final-offensive-playcall

 

Cousins is a veteran, he should have spiked the ball all on his own. It was 1st down and goal...the wasted down would have made no difference. Rookie mistake!

From that article;

"O'Connell made clear that he didn't think that the ticking clock impacted the execution of the play. But given how the scene played out, he acknowledged that spiking the ball would have been a better option."

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, NYLion said:

I don't think Hooker is even in the conversation tbh unless Goff goes down with injury and Hooker sets the world on fire. That's the only way I see Hooker getting games unless Goff has an unforeseen meltdown.

Goff is their guy and he should be. Ever since Lynn was canned and the playbook opened up, Goff has 45 TDs and 11 INTs over the last season and a half and he's now leading a winning team going 10-3 in his last 13. I think it's getting to the point where it's a matter of "when" on the extension not "if" so IMO, do it sooner than later. He seems like a safe bet to continue playing well in THIS offense with the way the team is built around him so just get him locked up now.

4 years $180M with $95M guaranteed or something in that ballpark. That's roughly a $14M aav increase from his current contract which considering cap inflation is manageable.

Swift and Hockerson were also starters we moved on from. I don't think the Lions will overpay to keep Goff.

[holygoat]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

Swift and Hockerson were also starters we moved on from. I don't think the Lions will overpay to keep Goff.

QB is more important than RB or TE. What's the line that you would consider crossing into "overpay" wrt to Goff?

[sagnam]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

 

Cousins is a veteran, he should have spiked the ball all on his own. It was 1st down and goal...the wasted down would have made no difference. Rookie mistake!

From that article;

"O'Connell made clear that he didn't think that the ticking clock impacted the execution of the play. But given how the scene played out, he acknowledged that spiking the ball would have been a better option."

Should have went faster to have 4 shots.  Spiking the ball doesn’t necessarily give you an extra play.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, holygoat said:

QB is more important than RB or TE. What's the line that you would consider crossing into "overpay" wrt to Goff?

If a contract would prevent us from signing other quality players. No way do I give 25% of the payroll to one player. Besides, if Johnson leaves, do we really want an ineffective QB?

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, sagnam said:

Should have went faster to have 4 shots.  Spiking the ball doesn’t necessarily give you an extra play.

4 shots? It was 1st and goal from inside the 5 yard line with 44 seconds left. Spike it, huddle up and call a TD play. I'm glad Cousins blew the game for the Vikings. 

[holygoat]

37 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

If a contract would prevent us from signing other quality players. No way do I give 25% of the payroll to one player. Besides, if Johnson leaves, do we really want an ineffective QB?

So you don't want to give Jared Goff $56M per year. We agree! Goff will demand -- and receive -- $40M-$45M from some team, and  it's likely to be the Lions.

[MichiganCardinal]

I think Campbell has just as much if not more to do with Goff’s success in this system as Ben Johnson…. I also think Goff is… dare I say…. a good quarterback by his own right.

The more he plays the more the falling out in LA seems to be an outlier to his abilities, not the norm. And the more it seems there was more than met the eye there, particularly as it relates to McVay’s role in the falling out.

[MichiganCardinal]

18 minutes ago, holygoat said:

So you don't want to give Jared Goff $56M per year. We agree! Goff will demand -- and receive -- $40M-$45M from some team, and  it's likely to be the Lions.

I remember Holmes saying something in the off-season to the nature of “it’s a lot easier to get worse at the quarterback position than get better”.

The Browns and Broncos show what can happen when you get attracted by the devil you don’t know. And the devils they knew at the time were definitely worse than Goff is now.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Sports_Freak said:

4 shots? It was 1st and goal from inside the 5 yard line with 44 seconds left. Spike it, huddle up and call a TD play. I'm glad Cousins blew the game for the Vikings. 

Football is over managed today. There was a time an experienced QB would have brought his team to the line, audibled a quick pass and gotten the 1st of his *4* chances done inside 7 seconds and if it went incomplete the miss stops the clock with 3 downs left.  In the end I don't really think it's a better game for every decision having to be mulled over between the sideline and the press box. I think it's actually sort of comic they pay QBs 40M/yr to be in total command of an offense and treat then them like football children. Nothing would be more time efficient when time is of  the essence than just letting the QB call the play in that situation.

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, holygoat said:

So you don't want to give Jared Goff $56M per year. We agree! Goff will demand -- and receive -- $40M-$45M from some team, and  it's likely to be the Lions.

I really don't agree. If the Lions can find a better option, they may. But, in reality, I don't care. I just want whoever will win for us. I guess I care more about keeping Ben Johnson. Promote him...pay him...keep him.

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Football is over managed today. There was a time an experienced QB would have brought his team to the line, audibled a quick pass and gotten the 1st of his *4* chances done inside 7 seconds and if it went incomplete the miss stops the clock with 3 downs left.  In the end I don't really think it's a better game for every decision having to be mulled over between the sideline and the press box. I think it's actually sort of comic they pay QBs 40M/yr to be in total command of an offense and treat then them like football children. Nothing would be more time efficient when time is of  the essence than just letting the QB call the play in that situation.

Yeah, the better QB was actually calling all the plays. That was a long  time ago. 😄

[TP_Fan]

3 hours ago, holygoat said:

So you don't want to give Jared Goff $56M per year. We agree! Goff will demand -- and receive -- $40M-$45M from some team, and  it's likely to be the Lions.

This is right.  Goff is going to get extended this year.  It will be the number quoted above.  The market doesn’t make you think much about this. 

[TP_Fan]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Football is over managed today. There was a time an experienced QB would have brought his team to the line, audibled a quick pass and gotten the 1st of his *4* chances done inside 7 seconds and if it went incomplete the miss stops the clock with 3 downs left.  In the end I don't really think it's a better game for every decision having to be mulled over between the sideline and the press box. I think it's actually sort of comic they pay QBs 40M/yr to be in total command of an offense and treat then them like football children. Nothing would be more time efficient when time is of  the essence than just letting the QB call the play in that situation.

I thought cousins comments were extremely telling.  To paraphrase: he said he could have called the spike himself “I can do anything I want” but doesn’t like to get into the habit of taking control.  I guess it surprised me.  We all watch a lot of football, I didn’t think someone like cousins would be so neutered by the headset.  I’ve always felt QBs should call the plays. They are the guys out there. It’s the NFL. At least the top tier guys.  

[NYLion]

16 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

If a contract would prevent us from signing other quality players. No way do I give 25% of the payroll to one player. Besides, if Johnson leaves, do we really want an ineffective QB?

Goff was a 2 time Pro Bowler and SB participant without Ben Johnson. This idea that he's a product of Ben Johnson is laughable. First he was a product of Cal's air-raid system then he was a product of McVay and now he's a product of Johnson? Maybe just maybe Goff is quite simply....a good QB.

How exactly do they go about upgrading on Goff if they don't want to pay him? Outside of Stafford, they haven't had a QB as good as Goff in like 6 decades. Not so easy to find them.

Edited September 26, 2023 by NYLion

[MichiganCardinal]

36 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Goff was a 2 time Pro Bowler and SB participant without Ben Johnson. This idea that he's a product of Ben Johnson is laughable. First he was a product of Cal's air-raid system then he was a product of McVay and now he's a product of Johnson? Maybe just maybe Goff is quite simply....a good QB.

How exactly do they go about upgrading on Goff if they don't want to pay him? Outside of Stafford, they haven't had a QB as good as Goff in like 6 decades. Not so easy to find them.

I think we may include Stafford in this evaluation after this season.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

Goff was a 2 time Pro Bowler and SB participant without Ben Johnson. This idea that he's a product of Ben Johnson is laughable. First he was a product of Cal's air-raid system then he was a product of McVay and now he's a product of Johnson? Maybe just maybe Goff is quite simply....a good QB.

How exactly do they go about upgrading on Goff if they don't want to pay him? Outside of Stafford, they haven't had a QB as good as Goff in like 6 decades. Not so easy to find them.

because he was terrible for a couple years until johnson took over.  he was benched in LA a couple times because he was so bad and his first year here was awful.

goff had a couple good seasons with mcvay too.  i understand your point, but i do think its not unfair to wonder if goff's resurgence has a least a little bit to do with johnson.

i think its a combination of goff being a smart qb, johnson being a good play caller, and the talent around goff being upgraded (st brown in particular).

[Shinzaki]

21 hours ago, Sports_Freak said:

Swift and Hockerson were also starters we moved on from. I don't think the Lions will overpay to keep Goff.

There were performance issues with Swift and Hock...there doesn't seem to be an issue with Goff

[Dan Gilmore]

@buddhaCan you document the two benching for me? I am aware of one start he missed after injuring his throwing hand (DL helmet impact), but no outright benching. Not that I paid strict attention.

[buddha]

8 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said:

@buddhaCan you document the two benching for me? I am aware of one start he missed after injuring his throwing hand (DL helmet impact), but no outright benching. Not that I paid strict attention.

no, you're right.  it was because goff was injured.  i went back and checked.

that said, he played poorly for the rams that season and poorly for the lions the next season.

the goff debate has been beaten to death here, so my only point is that i dont think its unreasonable to think johnson played a part in his resurgence given goff's poor play for multiple seasons.

the important thing is that goff is playing very well.  much better than i thought he was capable of playing.

[RandyMarsh]

I still think Goff got injured in the week 2 game at Lambeau his first year here.

He made a big mistake in week 1 but otherwise made some good throws and looked solid.

Then in week 2 the first quarter and a half he was throwing dimes and looking like an All Pro then he took a couple big hits and looked completely different after that. 

There was a point in the season where he couldn't complete a pass more than 10 yards down the field.

Then he took a week off cause he finally accepted he needed time off from the injury and returned to finish the season winning multiple Offensive player of the week awards and really hasn't looked back since.