chasfh Posted November 20, 2023 Author Share Posted November 20, 2023 2 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: lots of unnecessary drama avoided Sure, let him have his service time. He's somebody else's problem now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 20, 2023 Share Posted November 20, 2023 2 hours ago, chasfh said: If there's no chance the other side is going to accept the offer—and you must know that Correa was never going to accept an offer from the very first team making one that lowballed his publicized target by $55 million—then it can't be a serious offer. I don't know how much simpler it can be. So, if Correa went nuts and demanded a billion dollar minimum, only offers that were a billion dollars or more would be serious offers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Chas, you can have your opinion, no matter how subjective and biased, why do you assume the rest of us can’t arrive at a different conclusion. That is the simple part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: So, if Correa went nuts and demanded a billion dollar minimum, only offers that were a billion dollars or more would be serious offers? Correa didn't demand a billion dollars. He set his floor as 330 million, and the Tigers as the first team to make an offer lowballed him by 55 million. Either they made the offer knowing upfront Correa was going to reject it—which makes sense because everyone knew he would—or they made the offer dreaming that he would accept it without fielding another offer, which would happen only in a fantasy. Either way, theirs was an unserious approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 18 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said: Chas, you can have your opinion, no matter how subjective and biased, why do you assume the rest of us can’t arrive at a different conclusion. That is the simple part. Dan, I am not sure how you got the idea that I am making assumptions about what conclusion you or anyone else should or should not arrive at, but I have said nothing along those lines. All I am doing is sticking to my position in the face of unanimous opposition, and I believe I am presenting my case persistently without prejudice or malice toward anyone, unless you show me otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gilmore Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 The question of whether the offer was serious is subjective. You seem to want to stubbornly insist on your opinion, which doesn’t matter the slightest to the Tigers, or Correa, or MLB. Go ahead, keep sticking to your opinion, it’s going to be a long offseason… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIguy Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 All I know is the Tigers need to spend more money. If you look at the years they were competitive, they were somewhere in the top 10 in salary, usually in the top 5. Not saying I expect them to be top 5 with the way payrolls have gone up, but we certainly aren't a poverty franchise that needs to be below the league average. Get this team somewhere between 10 and 15 in payroll and we might have a chance to compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, Dan Gilmore said: The question of whether the offer was serious is subjective. You seem to want to stubbornly insist on your opinion, which doesn’t matter the slightest to the Tigers, or Correa, or MLB. Go ahead, keep sticking to your opinion, it’s going to be a long offseason… I'm sorry that sticking to my opinion and not changing my mind is upsetting you. I just feel very strongly about it, is all. If it makes you feel any better, the guys on the other side of the debate also feel very strongly about it, are also sticking to their opinion. and are not changing their minds, either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 Also, FWIW, nothing we say here, no matter what side of the coin any of us are on, matters to the Tigers, or Correa, or MLB, even if what we say agrees with them. We are all here talking to each other, in a nonprofessional capacity, sharing thoughts, having fun, and sometimes we have strong debates with strong opinions. As long as the debates stick to the subject at hand and things don't get personal, I think that's great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 2 hours ago, chasfh said: Sure, let him have his service time. He's somebody else's problem now. so in practical terms what does this mean for Spencer? If he still had 5 days (or whatever) to go to reach 5 yrs, does that mean if he accepted a ST invite deal he could have been optioned but now he can't? (or can refuse). In which case might that actually make him a less desirable signing - or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: so in practical terms what does this mean for Spencer? If he still had 5 days (or whatever) to go to reach 5 yrs, does that mean if he accepted a ST invite deal he could have been optioned but now he can't? (or can refuse). In which case might that actually make him a less desirable signing - or not? I think it probably would, but hey, he won the battle, didn’t he? Isn’t that the most important thing? Seems like he believes it is. Maybe Ed can tell us what the practical implications along the lines you suggest are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I have no opinion on the Turnbull situation at all. How about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/11/spencer-turnbull-awarded-full-year-of-service-for-2023.html ..."That is important for Turnbull on a couple of fronts. For one, players with more than five years of service can’t be optioned to the minors without their consent. Prior to this ruling, Turnbull was still going to have an option year remaining in 2024, allowing a club to sign him but keep him as depth in the minors in they wanted. That will no longer be on the table. Secondly, if Turnbull eventually spends all of 2024 in the majors or on the IL, he will get beyond six years of service and qualify for free agency again. Prior to today’s change, a club could have theoretically signed him for 2024 and then retained him via arbitration for 2025, since Turnbull would have been just shy of six years in that scenario. All in all, Turnbull has gained some more control over his future than he would have otherwise had."... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I have no opinion on the Turnbull situation at all. How about that? If Spencer was actually concealing the neck injury earlier (i.e. if you can believe McCosky's report), then even apart from everything else I can sympathize with management taking a position that any player that won't be straight with the team about injuries is just too big a risk to give any contract. Of course that won't keep Harris from looking pretty silly if Turnbull has a big year! 🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 I don’t know…. I think this makes him less attractive of a signing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 1 minute ago, oblong said: I don’t know…. I think this makes him less attractive of a signing. Maybe makes him less desirable as a major league signing, maybe wouldn't discourage a team from offering a minor league deal with ST invite. How much is anyone going to care if they retain a minor league option for the following year on a 31 yr old? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 Glad you got your service time pal, I think you're going to need it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Glad you got your service time pal, I think you're going to need it. which is why I don't care. He is 31 and hurt all the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 4 hours ago, Tiger337 said: So, if Correa went nuts and demanded a billion dollar minimum, only offers that were a billion dollars or more would be serious offers? The "not serious" logic being used is just beyond ridiculous. I just can't... anymore. I've had enough. You can take the baton from here on out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: The "not serious" logic being used is just beyond ridiculous. I just can't... anymore. I've had enough. You can take the baton from here on out... nah, I'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 😉😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) 11 hours ago, oblong said: I don’t know…. I think this makes him less attractive of a signing. This. Now a team can’t sign Turnbull and freely assign him to their minor leagues without rostering and waiver implications. Plus he creates distractions in the clubhouse with his me-first jerking around. He was more trouble than he was worth, and Harris couldn’t find another team to take him in trade. The Tigers are trying to remake their culture and that kind of guy, like Eduardo before him, doesn’t fit into that. Maybe there’s a team somewhere that will put up with that kind of thing from a slight talent like Turnbull, or is too clueless to know about it. That team might be in Asia, and maybe not even Japan. Turnbull won the battle, but he’s probably going to lose the war. Edited November 21, 2023 by chasfh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 14 hours ago, chasfh said: Correa didn't demand a billion dollars. He set his floor as 330 million, and the Tigers as the first team to make an offer lowballed him by 55 million. Either they made the offer knowing upfront Correa was going to reject it—which makes sense because everyone knew he would—or they made the offer dreaming that he would accept it without fielding another offer, which would happen only in a fantasy. Either way, theirs was an unserious approach. It's a negotiation, one side usually starts high, the other low, both are serious, neither are reflective of the actual worth, the market dictates that. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 21, 2023 Author Share Posted November 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, Longgone said: It's a negotiation, one side usually starts high, the other low, both are serious, neither are reflective of the actual worth, the market dictates that. It's true, which I can attest to from professional experience. The difference here is that one side had established, in public, a minimum amount he would sign for, $330 million, and the other side made the first offer of any team, an offer that was $55 million short of the public minimum demand. The only reasonable response from the one side to the other side would have been, you need to bring it up to $330 million, because other teams were going to make an offer that hadn't yet, so why would the one side accept the lowball out of the gate? If that Tigers would have responded by raising it up to $330MM, that would have been serious. But even had they raised it to $329MM before another team made an offer, Correa still could not have accepted it until getting other offers. So, if anything, $275MM might have been a bet that Correa had no market beyond that, and I don't recall anyone believing that at the time—although, if we recall, there was no "at the time" at all. As it was, we didn't even hear about the offer until after Javier Baez was already safely signed and in-house, so in the end, the Tigers never had to put their 10/275 money where our mouth was. The only way $275 million would have ended up being serious is if no other team matched that with their offer, or even made an offer. That's basically what happened with Pudge back in 2003-04: he'd made a public demand of $40 million at minimum, and the Tigers were the only team to offer that much, so Pudge had to take the deal. He almost certainly didn't want to have to sign with a 119-loss team, but he was on record and the Tigers matched it, so he was duty-bound to take the offer. Turned out OK, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 21, 2023 Share Posted November 21, 2023 (edited) I am seeing reports on Twitter that both Willie Horton and Willie Hernandez died today. Very sad day. Edit: Horton did not die. Major screwup by Henning for which he has apologized. Edited November 21, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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