2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[chasfh]

23 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I'd rather have 5 starters go 5 innings (or if it's a tandem to keep innings low then Mize/Manning can alternate 5 inning starts and 4 inning "closes")...

And 3 or 4 middle relievers that can go 2-3 innings, and have those guys get us to the 8th/ 9th inning 1-inning-guys rather than go through 4 or 5 relievers every single game. That drops it to 2 relievers often, 3 relievers occasionally, and more than that infrequently.

I was thinking what a pitching staff might look like under this strategy, and I came up with:

• Five starters.
• Two 2-4-inning guys, either one can open in a pinch. They could be either failed or aspiring starters.
• Two up-to-2-inning guys, definitely relievers.
• Two setup guys, one of each hand, preferably four outs in a pinch, one of them backup closer.
• One best short arm as closer.
• One mop-up guy, a slot through which you can work fungible optionable guys in your system.

If I could choose guys off the shelf to try this, this might be how I would construct it.

 

[RatkoVarda]

26 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Are those dollar amounts the increase they will receive?

amounts are the bonuses they just got for their 2023 performances

[Tenacious D]

16 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

During the Deadball era, pitchers were capable of excelling with three days rest so it seems that style of play is as important as physiology.  In more modern times, it is possible that there are some pitchers who might do better on five or more days rest even if the standard four days is optimal for most.  It doesn't have to be one size fits all if a team is willing to be creative.  

I think the increase in travel teams, from a very young age, has increased the wear and tear on pitchers arms.  My boys played in tournaments where opposing coaches were gaming innings limits to make sure their best pitchers threw more.  I also think the increasing pressure on HS and College programs to win can lead to bad judgment/behavior.

[RandyMarsh]

How did guys spend their offseasons back in the day? Like I used to be led to believe they essentially treated as a true offseason to rest and recover. Is there any truth to that? Just wondering cause that goes against alot of todays players mentalities.

I don't know about all guys but judging by players social media I know many are at places like driveline or other private places chucking baseballs for a good part of the offseason. 

 

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I think the increase in travel teams, from a very young age, has increased the wear and tear on pitchers arms.  My boys played in tournaments where opposing coaches were gaming innings limits to make sure their best pitchers threw more.  I also think the increasing pressure on HS and College programs to win can lead to bad judgment/behavior.

It does affect youth injuries.

 

But the science points to Lee's point. Velocity higher = Elbow risk.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I think the increase in travel teams, from a very young age, has increased the wear and tear on pitchers arms.  My boys played in tournaments where opposing coaches were gaming innings limits to make sure their best pitchers threw more.  I also think the increasing pressure on HS and College programs to win can lead to bad judgment/behavior.

I once threw over 200 pitches in a Little League game.  The manager brought me back to pitch again two days later.  Today's pitchers are too soft.  

[oblong]

45 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

How did guys spend their offseasons back in the day? Like I used to be led to believe they essentially treated as a true offseason to rest and recover. Is there any truth to that? Just wondering cause that goes against alot of todays players mentalities.

I don't know about all guys but judging by players social media I know many are at places like driveline or other private places chucking baseballs for a good part of the offseason. 

 

depending on how far back you go... they had jobs.

 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

I think the increase in travel teams, from a very young age, has increased the wear and tear on pitchers arms.  My boys played in tournaments where opposing coaches were gaming innings limits to make sure their best pitchers threw more.  I also think the increasing pressure on HS and College programs to win can lead to bad judgment/behavior.

I wonder whether that means foreign pitchers, like Dominicans and Venezuelans, have a leg up in staying healthy because they don't pitch as much when they're young as the travel ball kids? Particularly those who go into MLB academies when they're 16, or who train with a buscone before that, both of whom have incentives to protect kids' arms, as opposed to American travel ball managers, who have no such incentive and may work kids like galley slaves in games until their arms fall off, because it's no skin off their nose.

This is merely a hypothesis based on reading around here and there and I have no actual insight into it either way.

[chasfh]

36 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

It does affect youth injuries.

 

But the science points to Lee's point. Velocity higher = Elbow risk.

Kids definitely want more velocity. Velocity is cool.

[Tiger337]

23 minutes ago, oblong said:

depending on how far back you go... they had jobs.

 

I just finished reading a Stan Musial biography and learned that he worked in his home town grocery store during the off-season after winning his first MVP.  Late in his career, after a bad season, he willingly took a 20% pay cut because he felt he deserved it and wanted to repay his employers for their kindness over the years.  Curt Flood and Bob Gibson were not happy!  They though he was a good man, but very naive.  

[oblong]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I just finished reading a Stan Musial biography and learned that he worked in his home town grocery store during the off-season after winning his first MVP.  Late in his career, after a bad season, he willingly took a 20% pay cut because he felt he deserved it and wanted to repay his employers for their kindness over the years.  Curt Flood and Bob Gibson were not happy!  They though he was a good man, but very naive.  

Gordie Howe was a little bit like that.  He was viewed as being too naive and accepting of whatever the Red Wings management told him in regard to salary information. "Oh yeah Gordie, you are the highest paid guy.  For sure... don't worry"

[Jim Cowan]

15 minutes ago, oblong said:

Gordie Howe was a little bit like that.  He was viewed as being too naive and accepting of whatever the Red Wings management told him in regard to salary information. "Oh yeah Gordie, you are the highest paid guy.  For sure... don't worry"

Bob Baun was traded to the Red Wings, went out to dinner with Gordie, and told Gordie how much money he was getting on his Maple Leafs contract.  It was a lot more than Gordie was getting from the Red Wings.

[casimir]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I once threw over 200 pitches in a Little League game.  The manager brought me back to pitch again two days later.  Today's pitchers are too soft.  

 

"Lee, put down that galldarned math book and soak your arm in this beer cooler."

 

[RandyMarsh]

My main memory of baseball players having jobs is of Dave Bergman. I remember being like 5 or 6 and watching a telecast and they brought up how Dave was a stock broker in the offseason, my Dad replied with something about he probably makes more money doing that then being a baseball player. 

Meanwhile me hearing the word "stock" thought a stock broker was somebody that worked at the supermarket stocking groceries, I was like "wow didn't know grocery workers made more than baseball players". 

[oblong]

4 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

My main memory of baseball players having jobs is of Dave Bergman. I remember being like 5 or 6 and watching a telecast and they brought up how Dave was a stock broker in the offseason, my Dad replied with something about he probably makes more money doing that then being a baseball player. 

Meanwhile me hearing the word "stock" thought a stock broker was somebody that worked at the supermarket stocking groceries, I was like "wow didn't know grocery workers made more than baseball players". 

He did that in his post retirement too.  Also Jason Thompson.

[CMU97]

Back in '92 or '93, mickey stanley played in a charity softball game at CMU. I had a friend who was a journalism major who interviewed him, and I got to tag along. He asked  Mickey what was the biggest difference between  players today and his era. Without batting an eye, he said "money". Then my friend followed  up with something  like " besides that?". Then Mickey said, "training.  These guys can play baseball year around now. I had to go to work in the off season". He seemed pretty  bitter about it.

[oblong]

1 hour ago, CMU97 said:

Back in '92 or '93, mickey stanley played in a charity softball game at CMU. I had a friend who was a journalism major who interviewed him, and I got to tag along. He asked  Mickey what was the biggest difference between  players today and his era. Without batting an eye, he said "money". Then my friend followed  up with something  like " besides that?". Then Mickey said, "training.  These guys can play baseball year around now. I had to go to work in the off season". He seemed pretty  bitter about it.

I detected a lot of that from those guys. Northrup. Stanley. Lolich.  I think it’s natural because they were the last of the non free agent era so it stings to miss it by that much. The guys that came up in the 70s and 80s made good money but it wasn’t FU/generational wealth money either.  A run of the mill 10 year player in 1992, facing life after age 33 with maybe a few hundred grand in the bank leftover… you still gotta find something to do. Can’t live off that.  Into the 90s it got better for them.  Someone like a Steve Avery could finish their career and “retire” and begin raising their family in a decent middle class normal life.  I ran into him in a CYO league. His kids were playing.  Fast forward to another local guy, Derek Lowe. Nobody that special but he’s setup for life in a bigger way.  Today’s comparable players are one step further. Mansions, etc.  

[Jim Cowan]

I saw a great photo of Norm Cash barbecuing in his back yard, it was one of those little round steel barbecues, and you could see the next couple of backyards, there weren't any fences.  It was a solidly middle-middle class environment. 

[Toddwert]

I bet a lot of guys did "sales" jobs in the off season... My uncle knew Willie Horton fairly well because he was a sales rep for a Machine tool company after he retired... 

[Tigermojo]

Flaherty deal still not official yet for some reason. The offseason is far from over but if Flaherty is signed, has Harris done enough? I'd still like to see them add a closer and maybe trade for a third baseman.

[1984Echoes]

8 hours ago, chasfh said:

I was thinking what a pitching staff might look like under this strategy, and I came up with:

• Five starters.
• Two 2-4-inning guys, either one can open in a pinch. They could be either failed or aspiring starters.
• Two up-to-2-inning guys, definitely relievers.
• Two setup guys, one of each hand, preferably four outs in a pinch, one of them backup closer.
• One best short arm as closer.
• One mop-up guy, a slot through which you can work fungible optionable guys in your system.

If I could choose guys off the shelf to try this, this might be how I would construct it.

 

That's how I would look at it too...

[gehringer_2]

40 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

That's how I would look at it too...

Same list but only 4 regular starters. Most teams can't get to 5 reliable guys anyway.

[casimir]

9 hours ago, chasfh said:

I was thinking what a pitching staff might look like under this strategy, and I came up with:

• Five starters.
• Two 2-4-inning guys, either one can open in a pinch. They could be either failed or aspiring starters.
• Two up-to-2-inning guys, definitely relievers.
• Two setup guys, one of each hand, preferably four outs in a pinch, one of them backup closer.
• One best short arm as closer.
• One mop-up guy, a slot through which you can work fungible optionable guys in your system.

If I could choose guys off the shelf to try this, this might be how I would construct it.

 

 

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Same list but only 4 regular starters. Most teams can't get to 5 reliable guys anyway.

If there were a way to scale that down to 12 total to carry an extra bat.  I don’t know if that’s through more stamina in the bullpen or just using options to play with depth in Toledo.  Maybe that 5th spot isn’t always used, but when the schedule calls for it, make it a bullpen day assuming the rest status allows it?

[Tigeraholic1]

Saw this picture floating around and had to share. I have a buddy who still does freestyle hand lettering with camel hair brushes, iconic.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Tigeraholic1

[Tiger337]

17 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Saw this picture floating around and had to share. I have a buddy who still does freestyle hand lettering with camel hair brushes, iconic.

Is there a photo of Fidrych which is not a classic?  What a wonderful character he was.