2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Cruzer1]

It was Clyde Weir...

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2023/10/23/mccosky-tigers-scout-clyde-weir-loving-beloved-man-admirable-career-unreconcilable-death/71289616007/

Detroit — Kevin Tidey sent out the text. It was almost a rite of fall. If he had a player or two or three that he thought Clyde Weir would want to get a look at, he’d reach out and invite him to the first fall scrimmage.

Tidey is the head baseball coach at Division II Davenport University in Grand Rapids. Weir, for 37 years, had bird-dogged talent throughout the state, but especially in western Michigan, for the Tigers.

“I have the text right here,” Tidey said. “I told him about our scrimmage against Hope.”

Weir, unbeknownst to Tidey, had already informed the Tigers that he was retiring. Tidey read Weir’s text reply:

“Thanks for the info Coach T. But I think I’m going to hang up scouting. Thirty-eight years is enough. Thanks for all you did for me.”

 

To which Tidey replied: “Oh, man. Sorry to hear that, brother. We’re definitely going to miss seeing you around. You were the best in the business in my opinion.”

That was Sept. 20. Twenty-five days later, on Oct. 15, Weir took his own life at his home in DeWitt. He was 73.

“I was just in shock; I still am,” former Reds and Braves scout Rick Sellers said. “It baffled the hell out of me. You’re talking about a guy who had some serious energy every day, at least at the ballpark. When you hear about something like this about a guy like that, the baseball world took a huge hit.

“Not just scouting and the Tigers. Kids in the state of Michigan took a hit. The coaches in this state took a hit.”

It was former Tigers general manager Bill Lajoie who brought Weir into the organization in February 1985, after he’d watched Weir, then with Cleveland, doggedly scout a pitcher named John Smoltz at Lansing Waverly High School.

The Tigers drafted Smoltz in the 22nd round in 1985 and famously traded him to Atlanta for Doyle Alexander in 1987. Alexander helped the Tigers win the American League East title. Smoltz went on to pitch 21 seasons and was inducted into the Hall of Fame in 2015.

Pretty flashy start to a scout's career.

“There are very few guys like Clyde, in baseball or not,” said Bill Killian, who scouted the same western Michigan territory that Weir covered for 27 years with the Padres and Reds. “He was a guy who was loved by everybody he met. He was in tune with what was going on in the game, in the world and with people.

“That was his MO. That’s what he did.”

Back in 2011, Killian’s son, Dan, a first baseman and catcher, was released by the Padres. Weir reached out to the Tigers and encouraged them to invite Dan Killian to spring training in 2012.

“That was the kind of stuff he did,” Bill Killian said. “He was a helping guy, a guy who would reach out to people and try to help them.”

Eye for talent

Killian, Sellers and Weir were like the three amigos, always showing up at the same high schools and colleges, often being their organization’s first set of eyes on players in central and western Michigan. Players like Scott Aldred, Matt Thornton and Duane Below, all of whom went on to big-league careers.

“The way it works for guys in our roles, we’d recommend players and then other guys would come in and kind of take over,” Killian said. “Credit didn’t always go to Clyde, put it like that. But, I’ll tell you, there were a bunch of years in a row where we’d go to West Michigan Whitecaps games (the Tigers’ High-A affiliate) and there’d always be two or three guys on the team that Clyde had something to do with.”

 

Uncovering raw talent in the smaller towns and schools seemed a point of pride for Weir.

 

“That’s what I liked about Clyde,” Tidey said. “Just from a smaller-school standpoint, Clyde was always trying to find that gem. A lot of the scouts want to go to the bigger schools. Like, ‘We’re going to find better players at the bigger schools.’

“But Clyde, Rick, Bill, they were the type of guys where, ‘All right, there can be a gem at smaller schools.’ Some people are too stubborn to go to smaller schools and find them. Those three were at our stuff all the time.”

They often pitched the same player to their organizations. Case in point, all three were on Davenport lefty Corbin Clouse ahead of the 2016 draft. The Tigers were set to draft him in 27th round, but Sellars’ Braves, picking just ahead of the Tigers, snatched him off the board.

“Clyde really knew this kid,” Sellers said. “I think he’d seen this boy growing up. I got on him watching his summer team in Muskegon. Then the year we drafted him, I must’ve saw him four or five times. Every time I was back in the state, I was trying to line that dude up. And Clyde would be there just about every time.”

Sellers was a regional scout, responsible for four or five states. He said he felt like he was always trying to play catchup with Weir.

“Every time I came home, and I’m a Michigan guy, I knew that every guy I saw, Clyde had already been there,” Sellars said. “I could always smell Clyde’s tracks. He just took so much pride on covering the state. He had so many resources and everybody loved the guy.”

Clouse ascended quickly through the Braves' system, making it to Triple-A in 2018 before a shoulder injury essentially ended his career.

Sellers was a rookie scout with the Reds in 2005, when he first met Weir. They were both going after a hot-shot senior shortstop at Western Michigan University — Adam Rosario, whom the Reds drafted in the 12th round and who went on to enjoy an 11-year big-league career.

 

“I’d done some Christmas camps at Western for Coach (Fred) Decker and that player was always there on Christmas break,” Sellers said. “I got to know the kid, and when it got down to it, Clyde was already knee-deep on the dude. I think we were the only two that had him in to a pre-draft workout.

“I knew Clyde was my competition because Rosey told me. I just said, ‘That does not surprise me one bit.’”

All three were scouting a 6-6, hard-throwing left-hander from Hamilton High School near Holland in 2015, Grant Wolfram. Weir got the Tigers to draft him in the 17^th round, but Wolfram decided to attend Central Michigan.

Weir stayed on him, though, even after Wolfram transferred to Division II Davenport. But Wolfram ended up being selected by the Rangers in the 18^th round in 2018. He finished the 2023 season at Triple-A Round Rock, after going 10-0 with a 2.20 ERA in a relief role in Double-A.

In 2011, Weir and then-Tigers area scout Garrett Guest, locked on to a right-handed pitcher, Jake Sabol. Even though his numbers were rather pedestrian in his one full season starting for the Chippewas, they saw a late-blooming, fiercely competitive player worthy of a late-round pick.

The Tigers agreed, selecting Sabol in 36^th round.

“I wish I made Clyde prouder, just in the fact that I wish my pro career was a little better,” Sabol said. “He and Garrett stuck their noses out for me and he stayed in touch with me throughout my coaching career. It just shows the character of those two guys and how much they care about their guys.”

Sabol pitched in 18 games over two seasons, never getting above A-ball, but the fact is, he made Weir extremely proud and their relationship grew as Sabol transitioned into coaching — first at Division III Alma, then to Northwood and now as the first-year head coach at Central Michigan University.

“What a guy,” Sabol said. “That guy just loved, loved amateur baseball and he loved baseball, in general, in our state. Whether he was around the high school game or the college game, if there were guys to be seen, Clyde was there.”

As Sabol progressed through his coaching career, Weir was instrumental in helping him set up a network of scouts and contacts within professional baseball.

An unreconcilable death

Those who knew Weir best, of course, are finding it almost impossible to reconcile the death of this loving and beloved man, a man with four adult children, five grandchildren and his wife, Patricia.

“It’s hard for me to talk about,” Sellers said. “He was another mentor to me. He taught me an awful lot. I just couldn’t believe he could have something wrong that could bother him like this. I never caught him having a bad day ... Not one time in all the years did I catch him pissed off. And he should’ve been, sometimes.”

 

Said Killian: “I was shocked. Just because of his demeanor, his personality, the way he lived his life and conducted his business. A lot of things in life don’t add up, and this sure is one of them.”

His friends said he seemed at peace with retiring.

“He said, ‘I’ll know when it’s time,’” said Killian, who retired in 2021. “That was his tag line. ‘I’ll know when it’s time.’ I never pressured him on it. I know he was still enjoying it. He really loved baseball.”

Weir was cut back to part-time status after the pandemic year of 2020, but even after the organization completely overhauled the scouting department under new president Scott Harris, the club was planning to retain him as a part-time scout.

“I don’t see them forcing him out,” Killian said. “Baseball is a cruel game, for the players, managers and scouts, for everybody. But Clyde was revered, to the best of my knowledge, by the people in the Tigers’ organization. If anything, they would say, ‘Hey, what can we do to keep you around in some role, even if you wanted to retire on your own.’”

Recently, Weir had undergone major dental surgery and was having a hard time regulating the pain medication. Whether that triggered the despondency he felt on the morning of Oct. 15, one can only speculate.

“When I stopped (scouting), I don’t want to say we lost touch with each other, but we didn’t talk as much as we did during the years we were together, watching games five nights a week,” Killian said. “I guess I didn’t think it was unusual that I hadn’t talked to him.

“Looking back on it, I probably should’ve talked to him. Because maybe a phone call at some point would’ve made a difference.”

There’s an army of people inside and outside of baseball that knew Clyde Weir and whose lives were touched by him that share that same regret.

“He was a great guy and he was great for Michigan baseball,” Killian said. “If there ever was a guy who deserved to be in the Michigan Baseball Hall of Fame, it’s Clyde. He was an ambassador for the game in this state for 37 years.”

Sellers put it in terms all scouts could identify with.

“He was an 80 on the grade scale — top of the top,” he said.

 

 

 

[Edman85]

As of 2018 media guide, Weir was part time status then. I'm not surprised to see some factual miscues in a McCosky piece.

[Cruzer1]

Just now, Edman85 said:

As of 2018 media guide, Weir was part time status then. I'm not surprised to see some factual miscues in a McCosky piece.

He was a part timer because he only had Michigan. I would guess he made about 35,000 per year or so. Not nearly enough.

[Toddwert]

3 hours ago, mtutiger said:

It's not an apples to apples case, here.... there aren't any Corey Seagers out there and, with what is out there, is anything really worth the investment in terms of years given some of the options internally?

Matt Chapman would maybe the exception to the above, but in terms of contract length, he is going to be asking for too many years and there will be someone else out there willing to give him five years I'm guessing

yes in free angency  here are other ways to get players instead of putting your head in the ground and hoping a 22 year old turns into him.... there is always gonna be an excuse not to do something 

[Edman85]

1 hour ago, Cruzer1 said:

He was a part timer because he only had Michigan. I would guess he made about 35,000 per year or so. Not nearly enough.

He only had Michigan because he was a part timer. I am not trying to crap on the dead, but if he was a highly regarded scout, he would have climbed the ranks, and likely would have more names to his ledger than Duane Below and Scott Aldred. Any notion that he was some ace scout is likely the result of a flowery obit. It is possible he just didn't want to handle the area scout grind.

[1984Echoes]

13 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Chapman is a better 3B however and I'm tired of watching balls go down the 3b line unaccosted....

Chapman is good get if he has to settle for less than what he wants. If he finds himself in a "Correa goes to Minny for one year" situation because no-one bites on his demands after an off year, I want the Tigers to be there for him. Tigs can afford a large AAV in the short term no sweat. After Prince and Cabrera and Zimmermann I don't think we need to worry about Chris Ilitch giving away big dollars long term - I doubt that will be on the Tiger radar anytime soon.

 

THIS... I would be on board with. Or a 2 or 3-year with a player opt out after the 1st year...

[casimir]

16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Chapman is a better 3B however and I'm tired of watching balls go down the 3b line unaccosted....

Chapman is good get if he has to settle for less than what he wants. If he finds himself in a "Correa goes to Minny for one year" situation because no-one bites on his demands after an off year, I want the Tigers to be there for him. Tigs can afford a large AAV in the short term no sweat. After Prince and Cabrera and Zimmermann I don't think we need to worry about Chris Ilitch giving away big dollars long term - I doubt that will be on the Tiger radar anytime soon.

 

Can’t put it any better than this.  Hopefully he’s on the radar within the context of a contractual terms that you have suggested.  The short term expense isn’t a big deal and a short term deal is hardly blocking anyone that with only 209 PAs at AA if we’re looking at only one prospect.

Put another way, does anyone want to place any numerical value on the odds of both Keith and Jung firing on enough of all cylinders in MLB this season?

[Longgone]

4 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

THIS... I would be on board with. Or a 2 or 3-year with a player opt out after the 1st year...

I wouldn't give up a draft pick for a short term deal.

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, Longgone said:

I wouldn't give up a draft pick for a short term deal.

Teams lose a draft pick for signing Chapman?

That's a non-starter for Harris...

IMO.

[KL2]

12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Teams lose a draft pick for signing Chapman?

That's a non-starter for Harris...

IMO.

Depends on the deal team but I think the Tigers would only lose like a third rounder currently. 

[mtutiger]

12 hours ago, Toddwert said:

yes in free angency  here are other ways to get players instead of putting your head in the ground and hoping a 22 year old turns into him....

Pretty sure I have said the same thing at various points?

[Toddwert]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Pretty sure I have said the same thing at various points?

fine then we agree ... I dont have a chart on what everyone has said

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

fine then we agree ... I dont have a chart on what everyone has said

16 hours ago, mtutiger said:

They played him at 3B a lot down the stretch, and IIRC, commentary from the brass earlier in the offseason suggest that they plan on utilizing him at the position in 2024.

I'll take them at their word there.... although ideally put me in the camp of wanting them to trade from their strengths to bring back talent if the opportunity presents itself.

[Tenacious D]

I’ll go on record as saying I don’t want Chapman.  He looks like he’s on the decline.

Im good with Vierling until Jung is ready.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

I’ll go on record as saying I don’t want Chapman.  He looks like he’s on the decline.

Im good with Vierling until Jung is ready.

Vierling had no platoon split last season and his OPS when at 3rd was >800. If he could sustain that it's definitely your answer. But SSS applies. It was only 111 PA

[Tigermojo]

With Chapman and Baez they might have the best defense on the left side. Probably the worst offense on the left side too. Not really worth the cost.

Greene and Tork are going to have to step up and produce while we see what some unproven players can do.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Toddwert said:

fine then we agree ... I dont have a chart on what everyone has said

I do.  😀

[Toddwert]

10 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

I’ll go on record as saying I don’t want Chapman.  He looks like he’s on the decline.

Im good with Vierling until Jung is ready.

Jung hasnt played above AA he may never be "ready"

[Tenacious D]

18 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

Jung hasnt played above AA he may never be "ready"

He was our #1 pick after an excellent college career and looked very good at AA.  No reason to block that position by having to overpay, in both years and dollars, for a player who looks to be on the decline.  I’d have no problem getting a stopgap solution for 1-2 years, but don’t want another Baez situation.

You’re right—no one knows how good Jung will be (or Keith, Jobe, Max Clark, etc), and if we can get a 3B who is proven and doesn’t come with any red flags, I’m all for it.  I just don’t think it’s Chapman.

[Toddwert]

3 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

He was our #1 pick after an excellent college career and looked very good at AA.  No reason to block that position by having to overpay, in both years and dollars, for a player who looks to be on the decline.  I’d have no problem getting a stopgap solution for 1-2 years, but don’t want another Baez situation.

You’re right—no one knows how good Jung will be (or Keith, Jobe, Max Clark, etc), and if we can get a 3B who is proven and doesn’t come with any red flags, I’m all for it.  I just don’t think it’s Chapman.

Im just annoying that Harris seems to bring in players and coaches for pitching while hitting gets a big shoulder shrug , I mean they bring in a 4th outfielder type and everyone acts like hes gonna be the savior to all the offensive ills and maybe thats my fault for listening to what the Tigers beat writers say

[chasfh]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:25 PM, RandyMarsh said:

Yep, and aside from Tork they really don't have any real boppers on the team either where you can have an otherwise bad game(s) with the bat but get that bloop and a blast to bail you out. To me that is the biggest problem with the offense.

I feel like there is a decent chance that they can be relatively good from an on base stand point but without the big boppers to drive them in you're depending on stringing together a bunch of hits/walks in a row to score which is just tough to do in this day and age with pitchers having the stuff they have now. 

It's difficult to get big boppers interested in coming to (and staying with) your team when you play in what's practically the hardest home run park in the majors.

[chasfh]

On 12/28/2023 at 5:59 PM, casimir said:

Deuce doesn’t need a contract.  Just a gentleman’s agreement over a scotch will suffice.

I don't know, Deuce strikes me as more of an Old Crow Bourbon guy.

[gehringer_2]

20 minutes ago, chasfh said:

It's difficult to get big boppers interested in coming to (and staying with) your team when you play in what's practically the hardest home run park in the majors.

CoPa Park factors are weird though. They are supposed to be independent of the team, but look at the CoPA HR factors over the last 20 yrs. When the team hit well, they were generally good or neutral (08-16), when the team is terrible (21-23, 00-02) they are very low. I don't have the answer to that but it's weird and an unmistakable correlation.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/statcast-venue?venueId=2394

I can hypothesize that what is happening is that a good team which hits more HR is ahead at home more and its pitchers thus are challenging the opposition hitters more and giving up more solo shots thus the HR park factor goes up. But that is a pure swag and you'd have to go through every team to see if their factors even track their team results the way Copa's seem to before you could put any credence to it.

Edited December 31, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

CoPa Park factors are weird though. They are supposed to be independent of the team, but look at the CoPA HR factors over the last 20 yrs. When the team hit well, they were generally good or neutral (08-16), when the team is terrible (21-23, 00-02) they are very low. I don't have the answer to that but it's weird and an unmistakable correlation.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/statcast-venue?venueId=2394

I can hypothesize that what is happening is that a good team which hits more HR is ahead at home more and its pitchers thus are challenging the opposition hitters more and giving up more solo shots thus the HR park factor goes up. But that is a pure swag and you'd have to go through every team to see if their factors even track their team results the way Copa's seem to before you could put any credence to it.

I see more of a time trend than a team talent trend:

2000-2006 bad for home runs

2007-2017 neutral for home runs

2018-2023 bad for home runs.

This makes more sense to me,  I could see slight alterations to ballparks, balls or backgrounds changing trends over time.  

[gehringer_2]

19 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I see more of a time trend than a team talent trend:

2000-2006 bad for home runs

2007-2017 neutral for home runs

2018-2023 bad for home runs.

This makes more sense to me,  I could see slight alterations to ballparks, balls or backgrounds changing trends over time.  

one could do a deep dive on this - weather is big driving factor  - but it should show up as similar regional groupings, e.g Cleve/Chi/Det and/or NY/Phil etc., moving in concert and should also correlate to heating/cooling degree day data that utility Cos. generate.

In any case, COPAs numbers have moved through such a large differential it's hard to say much about the park from them. I am curious if other parks have that much noise in their results. I do remember we were in Minneapolis the year Target opened the factors were low and everyone was really worried about how big the park was playing and turned out to just be a cold summer in that part of the country.

Edited December 31, 2023 by gehringer_2