casimir Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, LongLiveMaroth said: Just need to find my stick... Borrow one of Maton's. Barely used. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 During a couple three week stretches, Vierling was one of the best hitters in the league. Unfortunately, he sucked the rest of the time. Maybe he can help at third. Tigers need another year to figure out if he and some others are going to perform. That's why I think Minnesota or Cleveland will win the division. They have more proven talent right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 29 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: During a couple three week stretches, Vierling was one of the best hitters in the league. Unfortunately, he sucked the rest of the time. Maybe he can help at third. Tigers need another year to figure out if he and some others are going to perform. That's why I think Minnesota or Cleveland will win the division. They have more proven talent right now. I look at Vierling’s stats and just shake my head that he had 530 PAs. It doesn’t seem like he played that much, but obviously he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 29 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: During a couple three week stretches, Vierling was one of the best hitters in the league. Unfortunately, he sucked the rest of the time. Maybe he can help at third. Tigers need another year to figure out if he and some others are going to perform. That's why I think Minnesota or Cleveland will win the division. They have more proven talent right now. Twins are cutting payroll and Guards are staying status quo, so if we can't somehow take advantage of that ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 4 hours ago, Edman85 said: He came back to the Tigers asking for money, but the Diamondbacks beat their offer. He went on to have an ERA in the high 4's and a negative win probability added. Harris was right to not give a blank check. I don't see why this is a demerit. At all. Harris did the right thing with Chafin, and it didn't ruin the relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 13 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Wasn't there a case several years ago where a player filed for less than the team offered? Al Kaline? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAbbott Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 19 hours ago, Edman85 said: A lot of hyperbole in here this morning... It does strike me as penny wise, pound foolish though, but there's no tangible evidence out there that going to arbitration has any effect on performance or relations with a player going forward. I just wonder if preparing for and attending the hearing comes close to exceeding the salary gap. It's also possible Mize's camp was pushing for a higher number during negotiations, or the negotiated contract was a deal with some kind of incentive structure, and then filed with a much lower number than he was asking for originally. This all seems to make sense. I read McCosky's article on the the Mize arbitration case, and that seemed to lack basic clarity of thought. As a beat writer, there should be some sense of duty to clarify. I know, I know I just branded my self as a reprobate from the stone age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 It’s something I never really thought about until now because it’s rare for our ball club to go thru arbitration. But the numbers submitted may not reflect the negotiation numbers. In arbitration the ruling is one or the other. Not a middle number. So both the club and player have to consider whether to push for their amount. It’s easy to imagine a scenario where a player says “ok I was asking for X but in front of a judge maybe I lower that in the hope of a favorable ruling. On the organization side you flip it. They offer an amount somewhere in between their number and the players number. So when we look at those and see “only $25K” it could have been a bigger gap if both sides moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, oblong said: It’s something I never really thought about until now because it’s rare for our ball club to go thru arbitration. But the numbers submitted may not reflect the negotiation numbers. In arbitration the ruling is one or the other. Not a middle number. So both the club and player have to consider whether to push for their amount. It’s easy to imagine a scenario where a player says “ok I was asking for X but in front of a judge maybe I lower that in the hope of a favorable ruling. On the organization side you flip it. They offer an amount somewhere in between their number and the players number. So when we look at those and see “only $25K” it could have been a bigger gap if both sides moved. anything under a 100k would be dumb to go to arb for especially when your payroll is under 100 million .... arb hearings are the Team telling the mediator how bad you are and your not worth the money how can that not lead to bad feelings? theres a reason why a lot of teams never go to arbitation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 46 minutes ago, Toddwert said: anything under a 100k would be dumb to go to arb for especially when your payroll is under 100 million .... arb hearings are the Team telling the mediator how bad you are and your not worth the money how can that not lead to bad feelings? theres a reason why a lot of teams never go to arbitation Agree. Frankly, this is so petty on the organization’s part not to just go the extra $25K and be done with it. $25K, seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 5 minutes ago, 1776 said: Agree. Frankly, this is so petty on the organization’s part not to just go the extra $25K and be done with it. $25K, seriously? But to oblong’s point, maybe these weren’t the numbers that the sides last exchanged. Maybe they weren’t exchanged at all. We don’t know. What we do know is the $25K difference. It isn’t a good look for the Tigers regardless of the path either/both sides took to get to their figures. That gets added to the pile of questions such as the non trade of Rodriguez, which Harris takes the L in public opinion for that (justified or not). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, oblong said: It’s something I never really thought about until now because it’s rare for our ball club to go thru arbitration. But the numbers submitted may not reflect the negotiation numbers. In arbitration the ruling is one or the other. Not a middle number. So both the club and player have to consider whether to push for their amount. It’s easy to imagine a scenario where a player says “ok I was asking for X but in front of a judge maybe I lower that in the hope of a favorable ruling. On the organization side you flip it. They offer an amount somewhere in between their number and the players number. So when we look at those and see “only $25K” it could have been a bigger gap if both sides moved. Correct. Since the arbiter has to pick one number or the other you win in arbitration by being one step more reasonable than the other side. OTOH, there are a lot of other factors and history contributing to what the last number on the table in the negotiations was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 46 minutes ago, casimir said: But to oblong’s point, maybe these weren’t the numbers that the sides last exchanged. Maybe they weren’t exchanged at all. We don’t know. My question(s): Did the Tigers brass and Mize’s representatives know the $$$ differences before any of this information was made public? I may be wrong, but I would imagine both sides were fully informed of the other sides offer prior to the numbers being publicly available. If someone knows differently please speak up. If the Tigers realized, at whatever point prior to this information being made public that the difference between the two sides was $25K, and still opted to challenge it without reaching out to Mize’s agent in an attempt to settle, it would just confirm my existing impression of the organization. I don’t know what the legal ground rules are here. To be sure there is an opportunity to find middle ground AFTER each side is informed of both sides offers prior to actually going to arb??? Yes, I know arb is one number or the other, no modifications. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/12/2024 at 12:54 PM, chasfh said: You misspelled both "one" and "month". who cares when the fans forget this? its Casey Mize that matters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 I'm with Edman - I think the Arbitration thing is being over analyzed. Avila wouldn't let anyone go to arbitration - the team lost like crazy so what good that that do anyone? They settled with 4 out of 5, that's pretty good evidence they were reasonable enough. No team needs to be at the outlier end of a normal process like Avila was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, 1776 said: My question(s): Did the Tigers brass and Mize’s representatives know the $$$ differences before any of this information was made public? I may be wrong, but I would imagine both sides were fully informed of the other sides offer prior to the numbers being publicly available. If someone knows differently please speak up. If the Tigers realized, at whatever point prior to this information being made public that the difference between the two sides was $25K, and still opted to challenge it without reaching out to Mize’s agent in an attempt to settle, it would just confirm my existing impression of the organization. I don’t know what the legal ground rules are here. To be sure there is an opportunity to find middle ground AFTER each side is informed of both sides offers prior to actually going to arb??? Yes, I know arb is one number or the other, no modifications. Thanks. Negotiations reach a stalemate and there’s an arb deadline and each side submits the figure they will think gives the the best shot at a win. I doubt they share that in negotiations otherwise you just give away your hand. Given the small amount I expect a deal beforehand. The hard feelings issue is overblown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I'm with Edman - I think the Arbitration thing is being over analyzed. Avila wouldn't let anyone go to arbitration - the team lost like crazy so what good that that do anyone? They settled with 4 out of 5, that's pretty good evidence they were reasonable enough. No team needs to be at the outlier end of a normal process like Avila was. I only wonder because when CJ Nitkowski pitched for the Tigers on his blog he went into detail how going to arbitration was so horrible and pretty much ruined his relationship with the Tigers by the nature of how its done and do we what to chance that with Mize Edited January 13 by Toddwert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Arbitration is part of the business of MLB, but the very nature of the process has the potential upset a player peronally and thus it's something that both players and management try to avoid. Dombrowski and Avila, for example, made a point of it. Most players likely get over it quickly, but I don't think the notion that some player might get upset by it should be brushed aside so quickly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Arbitration is part of the business of MLB, but the very nature of the process has the potential upset a player peronally and thus it's something that both players and management try to avoid. Dombrowski and Avila, for example, made a point of it. Most players likely get over it quickly, but I don't think the notion that some player might get upset by it should be brushed aside so quickly. The Tigers can’t take issue with his performance. He hasn’t pitched in two seasons. I doubt it will be contentious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 There ought to be some kind of process in place to handle situations like this where the numbers are so close. Like if it's less than 5% or some arbitrary smaller number difference...you just call it a day and give the player the cash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: The Tigers can’t take issue with his performance. He hasn’t pitched in two seasons. I doubt it will be contentious. They could point to his lack of strikeouts prior to his injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: There ought to be some kind of process in place to handle situations like this where the numbers are so close. Like if it's less than 5% or some arbitrary smaller number difference...you just call it a day and give the player the cash or just split the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Shinzaki said: There ought to be some kind of process in place to handle situations like this where the numbers are so close. Like if it's less than 5% or some arbitrary smaller number difference...you just call it a day and give the player the cash Just settle before it gets to arbitration. It doesn't even matter if it's the teams number or the player's number or split the difference... at $25K, I'd settle a deal with him within the week ("Heck, we ended up only $25K apart Casey... wanna split the diff?"). Then... the two sides do NOT go through "the process" which, yes, sometimes can get ugly... Edited January 14 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, Toddwert said: I only wonder because when CJ Nitkowski pitched for the Tigers on his blog he went into detail how going to arbitration was so horrible and pretty much ruined his relationship with the Tigers by the nature of how its done and do we what to chance that with Mize I think what probably did more to ruin CJ's relationship with the Tigers was that he wasn't very good. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 2 hours ago, oblong said: Negotiations reach a stalemate and there’s an arb deadline and each side submits the figure they will think gives the the best shot at a win. I doubt they share that in negotiations otherwise you just give away your hand. Given the small amount I expect a deal beforehand. The hard feelings issue is overblown. One could almost imagine them both getting a laugh out of how close the submissions were. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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