RandyMarsh Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Ichiro is a HOF but I feel his actual impact on the field is a bit overrated. Yes he had 3K hits but 2500 of them were singles including nearly 600 infield hits which aren't nearly as valuable since they can only advance a runner 1 base. Also he had a subpar walk rate and yeah he could steal bases but a few of those high stealing years he got caught stealing at an above average rate which totally negates it. Like I said though still a great player and a HOF but if you are just factoring in his MLB career I don't think he should be classed as this slam dunk no brainer choice like I think he is perceived as. Ive seen lesser players struggle to get in and take several years to do so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 On the topic of Ichiro, last fall I read Poskanski’s Top 100 players book, which was fantastic. I took a screenshot of this passage on Ichiro. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 18 hours ago, oblong said: On the topic of Ichiro, last fall I read Poskanski’s Top 100 players book, which was fantastic. I took a screenshot of this passage on Ichiro. Yes, I remember hearing this story from Bob Kendrick on the Black Diamonds podcast. I cannot find the article, but memory (yeah, I know) has it that he was very eager to meet Ernie Harwell when he made his his "vs Detroit debut". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 19 hours ago, RandyMarsh said: Ichiro is a HOF but I feel his actual impact on the field is a bit overrated. Yes he had 3K hits but 2500 of them were singles including nearly 600 infield hits which aren't nearly as valuable since they can only advance a runner 1 base. Also he had a subpar walk rate and yeah he could steal bases but a few of those high stealing years he got caught stealing at an above average rate which totally negates it. Like I said though still a great player and a HOF but if you are just factoring in his MLB career I don't think he should be classed as this slam dunk no brainer choice like I think he is perceived as. Ive seen lesser players struggle to get in and take several years to do so. Well, he could have also rolled over and grounded into a double play. Wait, nope, he wouldn't have been doubled up. I'll admit, I'm a bit of a slappy. He was a highly successful player that had a game that really stuck out from the rest of the crowd. The contact, the speed, the defense,..... the first step out of the box while putting the ball in play on the ground to the left side. Oh gosh yes, I'd take a leadoff hitter like that right now, especially with the changes to the rules affecting base running. And drilling down on the base stealing, Suzuki finished with 509 SB and 117 CS, a success rate of 81.3%. Rickey Henderson was 1,406 and 335, a 80.8% success rate. By no means is it a perfect comparison, the eras are slightly different. Supbar walk rate of 6.0% vs MLB average of 8.3% is noted. But let's also note his 10.1% SO rate vs 18.9% average. So, OK, he walked only 75% as well as league average. He flipping struck out half as much as everybody else! I think given his highly successful BABIP over the years, it was imperative for him to swing at what he could make contact with to get on base for those hitting behind him in the lineup. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, casimir said: Well, he could have also rolled over and grounded into a double play. Wait, nope, he wouldn't have been doubled up. I'll admit, I'm a bit of a slappy. He was a highly successful player that had a game that really stuck out from the rest of the crowd. The contact, the speed, the defense,..... the first step out of the box while putting the ball in play on the ground to the left side. Oh gosh yes, I'd take a leadoff hitter like that right now, especially with the changes to the rules affecting base running. And drilling down on the base stealing, Suzuki finished with 509 SB and 117 CS, a success rate of 81.3%. Rickey Henderson was 1,406 and 335, a 80.8% success rate. By no means is it a perfect comparison, the eras are slightly different. Supbar walk rate of 6.0% vs MLB average of 8.3% is noted. But let's also note his 10.1% SO rate vs 18.9% average. So, OK, he walked only 75% as well as league average. He flipping struck out half as much as everybody else! I think given his highly successful BABIP over the years, it was imperative for him to swing at what he could make contact with to get on base for those hitting behind him in the lineup. This. Trying to find flaws in Ichiro’s HOF candidacy is nearly impossible. He was elite. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 52 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: This. Trying to find flaws in Ichiro’s HOF candidacy is nearly impossible. He was elite. and there is nothing wrong with voters giving consideration to his accomplishments in Japan. We consider the US to be the World center of baseball, Ichiro's accomplishment in another part of the world can validly contribute to his status as a great player. If had come to the US at 24 he probably generates another 15 WAR in the US which would be ~75 - which is Lou's total, and we know he should be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 4 hours ago, Tenacious D said: This. Trying to find flaws in Ichiro’s HOF candidacy is nearly impossible. He was elite. His hitting producton was not elite, not with a 107 OPS+. His speed and defense were elite. He is Hall worthy, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon of Hall of Famers. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: His hitting producton was not elite, not with a 107 OPS+. His speed and defense were elite. He is Hall worthy, but I wouldn't put him in the upper echelon of Hall of Famers. True about his OPS+, his ISO in particular was weak. But I think that goes back to his game of putting the ball in play and getting on base. Now that I’m thinking about it, the popular theory suggests he could’ve hit for more power had he been amenable to sacrificing some AVG. But as his speed declined, he never made that transition to SLG. So maybe that theory just doesn’t hold true. He hit for pretty good power in Japan, but it never manifested itself in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) My earlier post about Ichiro may have been a little harsh and for the record I did say that I'd vote for him as a HOF but I just feel like he shouldn't be treated as this slam dunk automatic 1st ballot choice like people think...IF you go by his stats. If you go his overall global impact and star power than certainly he is. But if we're talking numbers wise I look at somebody like say Craig Biggio. Different positions and to some extent different players offensively but it took him a few years to get in and statistically I feel he was a superior player. May not have had as high of average but got on base at a superior clip, hit for more power and played a more valuable position. Edited January 28 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) Edited January 28 by kdog 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 Holy Toledo! We’ve never done a deal like this before. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 28 Author Share Posted January 28 If Max Clark does what he is expected to do, he will probably have to get one of these eventually, too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roarintiger1 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 That's a lot of eggs in one basket.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 So file and trial eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 minute ago, roarintiger1 said: That's a lot of eggs in one basket.......... This is small potatoes money...very low risk. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaDreaming Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) I love it. This seems like smart business to me. Keith is guaranteed +$40 (if my quick numbers are correct) which is awesome for him. If he turns into a star, as the Tigers think he will, the Tigers get a massive discount. Edited January 28 by CaliforniaDreaming 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinzaki Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Smart move...the kind of move I'm not accustomed to seeing from the Tigers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 4 minutes ago, CaliforniaDreaming said: I love it. This seems like smart business to me. Keith is guaranteed +$40 (if my quick numbers are correct) which is awesome for him. If he turns into a star, as the Tigers think he will, the Tigers get a massive discount. Guess he’s probably making the team this year (though didn’t seem like much doubt). How do you think Greene and Tork are feeling right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdog Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: Guess he’s probably making the team this year (though didn’t seem like much doubt). How do you think Greene and Tork are feeling right now? It's probably too late for them. They'll get bridge deals or much bigger money. Edited January 28 by kdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Ichiro, per JAWS (which may underrate him a tad, because I do think you need to bake in his pre-MLB Japanese stardom in, if only for the posting restrictions), is a only a few players above Bobby Abreu and below the average HOF-er. I'd vote for him, but I don't view him as the should-be-unanimous-slam-dunk that contemporaries like Albert Pujols and Adrian Beltre are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Repeating my Keith tweet here, just because they are things I think about. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsc3165 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 2 minutes ago, Edman85 said: Repeating my Keith tweet here, just because they are things I think about. I love this move, you have to think his MiLB managers and player development people have been asked for input, he has passed eye test and definitely excited to see him in a Tigers uniform this year. Plus it shows other players team is willing to pay up for talent. I am actually excited for this year to start. Waiting to see how our pitching staff shakes out, hopefully without major injuries this year..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Great move by the Tigers! They have never done anything like this before with a prospect. If he's good, they have him locked up through his prime years at a very reasonable cost. If not, it won't hurt them too much. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Great move by the Tigers! They have never done anything like this before with a prospect. If he's good, they have him locked up through his prime years at a very reasonable cost. If not, it won't hurt them too much. Should we have any concern it might diminish his motivation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 One of the reasons they've never done this... They haven't really had prospects worth doing this with. Greene and Tork, I probably would have considered, but Greene got hurt right around the time you would pull the trigger on this. And Tork is a Boras guy. Before that, Castellanos made some sense, but the CBT implications make that tricky. Because of the AAV nature of these type of deals, you don't really want to be entering into them when you are going to be fighting the tax, taking on a few extra million on your CBT Salary without upgrading the current roster. Before that, Curtis Granderson signed an extension in 2008 after 2+ years. And you don't do this with pitchers. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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