2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[Motor City Sonics]

27 minutes ago, 1776 said:

The new spring training hats are here. Some good- some bad. 
 

Nothing like Urine Yellow to grab their attention. 

[chasfh]

Nick Maton will catch on some place else and put up another couple years. Maybe Asia. 

[Tiger337]

So, the Tigers now have a Colten and a Kolten.  

[SoCalTiger]

I hope Maton slips through waivers but I also think he will be claimed. Maybe Miami .

I also think we should not have played him at third base which he obviously could not play. This is my Hinch bug a boo. He keeps playing people out of position ( See Willie Castro 2nd base/ Niko Goodrum shortstop and McKinstry almost every day somewhere etc) for "optionality" or some such silly catch phrase.  Although maybe its the front offices forcing him ? 

[1776]

5 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I hope Maton slips through waivers but I also think he will be claimed. Maybe Miami .

I also think we should not have played him at third base which he obviously could not play. This is my Hinch bug a boo. He keeps playing people out of position ( See Willie Castro 2nd base/ Niko Goodrum shortstop and McKinstry almost every day somewhere etc) for "optionality" or some such silly catch phrase.  Although maybe its the front offices forcing him ? 

I actually looked up the word “optionality” the other day to see if it even existed outside Hinch’s vocabulary. I was surprised to see that it was a legit word. 

[1984Echoes]

20 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

...  Although maybe its the front offices forcing him ? 

I would assign that blame to...

A lack of better options.

[Tiger337]

40 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

I hope Maton slips through waivers but I also think he will be claimed. Maybe Miami .

I also think we should not have played him at third base which he obviously could not play. This is my Hinch bug a boo. He keeps playing people out of position ( See Willie Castro 2nd base/ Niko Goodrum shortstop and McKinstry almost every day somewhere etc) for "optionality" or some such silly catch phrase.  Although maybe its the front offices forcing him ? 

Most teams are doing that kind of thing these days.  It is spun as strategy, but I think it's mostly just lack of good players capable of playing a full season.  It is done out of necessity more than strategy.  It has always been done to an extent, but teams are protecting their assets more these days rather than having players play 162 games.     

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Most teams are doing that kind of thing these days.  It is spun as strategy, but I think it's mostly just lack of good players capable of playing a full season.  It is done out of necessity more than strategy.  It has always been done to an extent, but teams are protecting their assets more these days rather than having players play 162 games.     

The Tigers can be excused for doing a little "can this guy play there or not" trialing, but it's time that kind of thing should be coming to an end. We may still have young players come up and not perform but we should be about done experimenting with trying to stretch waiver wire utility guys in to out of position regulars.

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

I would assign that blame to...

A lack of better options.

Good point but if the cat is overwhelmed why watch it drown ?

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Most teams are doing that kind of thing these days.  It is spun as strategy, but I think it's mostly just lack of good players capable of playing a full season.  It is done out of necessity more than strategy.  It has always been done to an extent, but teams are protecting their assets more these days rather than having players play 162 games.     

Agreed but it  "seems' to me that managers get themselves over involved in the game using this "strategy" and actually weaken the product. Also isn't an injury more likely to happen to someone playing out of position. Like a plumber getting fried trying to wire a house ?

It seems this can be accomplished with one or two "utility" players being used minimally while allowing good or potentially good players mastering one position.

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

The Tigers can be excused for doing a little "can this guy play there or not" trialing, but it's time that kind of thing should be coming to an end. We may still have young players come up and not perform but we should be about done experimenting with trying to stretch waiver wire utility guys in to out of position regulars.

I agree it should be coming to an end. Shouldn't this be done at the minor league level ? I mean the coaches and management know or should know what is the best position for a player before promoting him to the majors and hopefully even very soon in their minor league career. 

Hopefully Keith only plays second base and isn't flip flopped between positions as he was in the minors. Look at JHM..third base to outfield back to third and then back to outfield between two organizations. Now he is trying to make the majors and has been handicapped by the constant position change. Atlanta settled on the outfield why didn't' we just leave him there to get reps ? It seems we are grooming players for "optionality"...it's a fad and I do not think it will stick. 

[gehringer_2]

12 minutes ago, SoCalTiger said:

Good point but if the cat is overwhelmed why watch it drown ?

Pretty good description of McKinstry playing 3B

[SoCalTiger]

And as fellow up how did we draft Tork as a third baseman and play him at third in the minors when he can't even play first base ? 

[SoCalTiger]

Just now, gehringer_2 said:

Pretty good description of McKinstry playing 3B

Everyone last year with Verling being able to tread water....and yes I agreed to let candy go and a still happy we aren't paying him 15 million/year for three years. 

Plus Jung is coming even though he played second in college, was drafted as a second baseman, played every game, or almost, at second base in the minors and then through an  epiphany he is now a third baseman ! 

[Topliner1903]

15 hours ago, casimir said:

The question now becomes for whom does Ingram get designated for assignment?

Never send to know for whom the bell tolls: it tolls for thee. 

[Cruzer1]

18 hours ago, chasfh said:

I'm late 50's, and I don't know who I'm suppose to ogle after...

[Tiger337]

8 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Agreed but it  "seems' to me that managers get themselves over involved in the game using this "strategy" and actually weaken the product. Also isn't an injury more likely to happen to someone playing out of position. Like a plumber getting fried trying to wire a house ?

It seems this can be accomplished with one or two "utility" players being used minimally while allowing good or potentially good players mastering one position.

What they need to do is expand rosters to maybe 28 players (keeping the pitcher limit at 13.  

[casimir]

8 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I agree it should be coming to an end. Shouldn't this be done at the minor league level ? I mean the coaches and management know or should know what is the best position for a player before promoting him to the majors and hopefully even very soon in their minor league career. 

Hopefully Keith only plays second base and isn't flip flopped between positions as he was in the minors. Look at JHM..third base to outfield back to third and then back to outfield between two organizations. Now he is trying to make the majors and has been handicapped by the constant position change. Atlanta settled on the outfield why didn't' we just leave him there to get reps ? It seems we are grooming players for "optionality"...it's a fad and I do not think it will stick. 

I think Malloy is more handicapped by his glove rather than where it is positioned.  Or maybe its his arm.  Or maybe both, I don't know.

As for last season, he was at 3B from Opening Day through May 29.  Then he was in LF/RF from May 31 through August 20, save for one game at 3B.  Then he finished out the season at 3B.  And there were some PH/DH duties in there as well.  So, he was given continuous blocks of time to work at 3B then OF then 3B.  He was moved around from game to game.  I think it should be acknowledged that he was given game after game to work in the dirt and in the grass on a consistent basis.

I don't mind the optionality, but I don't believe that it is for everybody.  And I don't know that the whole team should be moving around defensively on a game to game basis.  I wouldn't expect that.  The catchers are going to catch.  Baez at SS, Meadows (if he sticks with the big club) at CF, Torkelson at 1B.  That's half of the defense right there.  Greene as a COF or CF, Carpenter and Canha as COFs, however it lines up, and maybe Vierling in the OF as well.  Hopefully Keith can handle 2B, and so then there's the rotating door at 3B.  It's probably not going to be as fluid as last season.

[casimir]

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

What they need to do is expand rosters to maybe 28 players (keeping the pitcher limit at 13.  

Is that possible?  Are pitchers being developed to handle the workload needed, whether they are SP or RP?  It seems like velocity has taken over too much and stamina takes a back seat to it.  But I guess my point/question is, if that's how pitchers are handled in the amateurs/minors, how can we expect it be different in the majors?

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

So, the Tigers now have a Colten and a Kolten.  

Given baby-naming trends a couple of decades ago, probably half the organizations have both a Colten and a Kolten by now, or will soon. 😉

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

I hope Maton slips through waivers but I also think he will be claimed. Maybe Miami .

I also think we should not have played him at third base which he obviously could not play. This is my Hinch bug a boo. He keeps playing people out of position ( See Willie Castro 2nd base/ Niko Goodrum shortstop and McKinstry almost every day somewhere etc) for "optionality" or some such silly catch phrase.  Although maybe its the front offices forcing him ? 

Who did we have in-house last year who would have been a major-league regular at third?

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

The Tigers can be excused for doing a little "can this guy play there or not" trialing, but it's time that kind of thing should be coming to an end. We may still have young players come up and not perform but we should be about done experimenting with trying to stretch waiver wire utility guys in to out of position regulars.

I don’t think we’re ever going to stop trolling the waiver wire—especially after the last guy basically ignored it—but our reliance on it will decrease as our major league club becomes more settled. We are definitely not there yet, so I would expect to see a lot of action on it certainly this year, probably next year. It’s always going to be a handy tool to shore up the back end of both your 26 and 40, especially on the mound. But to Tiger337’s point, it’s unlikely we’re going to run eight regulars out there day in and day out. To the degree that was ever a thing, almost nobody is doing that today.

[gehringer_2]

Just now, chasfh said:

Who did we have in-house last year who would have been a major-league regular at third?

Maybe Vierling, but they never gave him any kind of opportunity to play it consistently and settle in at all so who knows? 

There certainly are guys out there who can move around the field without it being a detriment to their fielding, but it runs against every rule of skill development to ignore that for *most* guys, consistent reps will improve play. And the fact is that *utility* players are usually in that role because their bats are deficient from at least one side, not because they have demonstrated more than marginal capability to move around the field with particularly great success.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don’t think we’re ever going to stop trolling the waiver wire—especially after the last guy basically ignored it—but our reliance on it will decrease as our major league club becomes more settled. We are definitely not there yet, so I would expect to see a lot of action on it certainly this year, probably next year. It’s always going to be a handy tool to shore up the back end of both your 26 and 40, especially on the mound. But to Tiger337’s point, it’s unlikely we’re going to run eight regulars out there day in and day out. To the degree that was ever a thing, almost nobody is doing that today.

None the less, you can platoon bats, which is normally the greater need, without bouncing guys around positionally as much as the Tigers have.

[chasfh]

8 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Good point but if the cat is overwhelmed why watch it drown ?

A team in our position, last year especially, needs to give someone enough latitude to learn and get better at a position to see whether they can become a more permanent option there. That’s going to be a matter of weeks, not days.

There’s not enough roster depth and 40-man flexibility to put a guy out there, figure he can’t do it after three or four games, then say “you’re done, next up!”, all season long. Nobody has a couple dozen different guys in their system to be able to option them up and down during a season trying to find The One. An organization has maybe half a dozen guys tops they could do that with at any position, not counting guys on big league contracts they play out of position there, and when you hamstring yourself at third base like we did when we let Candelario walk, you have to give the best of a bad lot time to figure out whether they can actually keep the job.

In Maton’s case, he apparently had enough tantalizing moments to make the Tigers think yeah, maybe he can do it, but those were interspersed among the many more moments they looked at him and went, yikes. By end of July it was like yeah, this ain’t gonna work, and we didn’t see him there much after that.