2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[gehringer_2]

I think with Turnbull there was a potential for his case to have gained some traction with players - if the Tigs had gone to arg, won a relatively low salary for him and then he had pitched well - becoming a high performance bargain and not gotten paid only for the difference between  a rehab assignment and a option  assignment.

But the non-tender has short circuited any potential issue in that direction.

[Tiger337]

37 minutes ago, oblong said:

I don’t expect a GM to bad mouth or talk down about any player on the active roster. They will say the nice things until he’s not a member of the ball club.  
 

I don’t think the way Eduardo or Turnbull were treated will have any impact on players coming here. Nothing wrong with not giving a player a new contract when they already have one. He opted out Tigers didn’t do anything wrong there. Why negotiate against yourself?  

I don't think it will impact players coming here either.  I was responding to Chas' assertion that he had just sent a message to problem players.  I didn't necessarily think that would be good thing, but I also don't think that's what happened.  

[SoCalTiger]

IIRC after rehabbing for a very long time Turnbull missed a minor league start for a toenail. Nuff said.

[Jim Cowan]

Free agents don't give a **** about Rodriguez and Turnbull, they are snowflakes.

What I am waiting for now, re Turnbull, is for someone to post "Boras wins again", like they always do.

[Motor City Sonics]

They're going to sign two MLB starters to go with Manning-Skubal-Olson.       I don't know, even though he's younger than Turnball was in his TJ return, I'm not counting on Mize to do anything this year.    Mize could end up as their closer for all we know.  

 

Players know that this business can be cutthroat.   It's not going to stop anyone from coming here, but we have to understand that if the Tigers want a good player in FA, they'll have to overpay like in the mid-2000s.    The overpaying of Pudge and Vina worked out well because the team got better and then others followed.    

 

Chris has spent money on organizational improvements,  actually quite a bit of money.   Now, in the next 2-3 years he needs to spend more on the roster.    It needs to start this year.   Go get one of the better pitchers.  Show this young team you are serious about their development.  Go get a Sonny Gray type and then get a second Mike Lorenzen-level starter and make guys like Olson, Gipson-Long, Madden, Flores, Wentz fight for a spot.    Can't worry about one of the starting pitchers could end up like Jordan Zimmerman.  Take the risk.  

 

I don't know if they need to pursue position players   If they are at 37 total on the roster, you have to figure that, at some point this year, Keith, Malloy and even Jung will be on the roster.   Gotta let all these young guys play this year.   It would be a mistake to take playing time away.   What is Carpenter, the guy from most of the season or the September guy?   I don't think Ryan Kreidler or Donny Sands are going to be on this roster much longer. 

 

With a couple of decent-to-good starting pitchers in Free Agency, this team can absolutely contend in 2024, before their actual peak.   Just don't get off to another horrible start and play yourselves out of it by mid-May.  

[Motor City Sonics]

Oh, and I hope their Javy Baez reclamation project works, that would be fantastic.    Maybe his old friend Canha can help.   He seems to be all-in on it.    

[Edman85]

Not that it matters for the Tigers, but I do have some of the back-of-the-roster minutia figured out for luxury tax calculations (that places like Cots and Fangraphs brute force guess), and have that incorporated in a spreadsheet that will start working once the season starts.

[chasfh]

11 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

but even if he is right about Rodriguez and Turnbull, non-difficult players might perceive him as difficult to work with and  avoid him.  I am not saying that he should let difficult players take advantage of him, just that I don't think having the reputation as a tough GM is necessarily a positive.  

Maybe non-difficult players wouldn't think Harris such a jerk if he chooses to not bring back players who ghost their teammates for months at a time, or who malinger with "injuries" like cracked toenails even in an attempt to manipulate service time for personal gain.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I don't know if they need to pursue position players

Depends on who washes out. By the 2nd half of this season, Keith, Jung, Torkelson and Baez are potential everyday IFs, Greene, Meadows, are holding down 2 OFs. Canha, JHM, Carpenter, Vierling, left to fill 2 roster spots plus the bench has to play enough to stay sharp. So - yup, it's pretty crowded already. Of course the jury is still out on whether Parker's bat will hold up and Jung could falter at AAA, but the rest look like fairly sure things to be in their spots. Catcher is the obvious play for a new body but we already know there probably won't be one out there to be had.

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think it will impact players coming here either.  I was responding to Chas' assertion that he had just sent a message to problem players.  I didn't necessarily think that would be good thing, but I also don't think that's what happened.  

I made the comment to be humorous, although I also don't think Harris's goal was to show the players who's boss as much as his actions have the effect of reminding players that they're not dealing with the Al Avila regime anymore. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by chasfh

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Maybe non-difficult players wouldn't think Harris such a jerk if he chooses to not bring back players who ghost their teammates for months at a time, or who malinger with "injuries" like cracked toenails even in an attempt to manipulate service time for personal gain.

I think it's just as likely neither Tiger situation has any buzz among players in general because 1) like everyone else, probably none of them have much of a clue what was going on with ERod an thus likely have no opinion about it one way or the other - in the end he's just a guy with an opt out that took it. Nothing to see there. 2) With Turnbull non-tendered, no-one actually had their service manipulated in the end. No player is going to hold it against a team that they cut somebody loose who appears to have wanted just that.

[casimir]

12 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Patientce.  An injured pitcher making a come back and a multi-position guy are going to sign any day now.

Does Ohtani qualify as such?

[casimir]

43 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

I don't know if they need to pursue position players   If they are at 37 total on the roster, you have to figure that, at some point this year, Keith, Malloy and even Jung will be on the roster.   Gotta let all these young guys play this year.   It would be a mistake to take playing time away.   What is Carpenter, the guy from most of the season or the September guy?   I don't think Ryan Kreidler or Donny Sands are going to be on this roster much longer. 

What position does Malloy play?

They may have quantity of position players, but do they have quality?

[Toddwert]

9 minutes ago, casimir said:

What position does Malloy play?

They may have quantity of position players, but do they have quality?

thats my question ... we thought Tork and Greene were going to be stars too... one cant stay health and other one is having a hard time playing first 

[Edman85]

It's clear makeup and work ethic weigh heavily on the current regime's scouting report. When so much player development is based on the individual's buy-in, that makes some sense.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

It's clear makeup and work ethic weigh heavily on the current regime's scouting report. When so much player development is based on the individual's buy-in, that makes some sense.

and young players can become better fielders. For instance, in Tork's case the skills are fine, but he gets sloppy. That's exactly the kind of thing that a good work ethic can help. It can be frustrating but if anything the previous regime pulled the plug on guys too soon (Adames, Paredes, etc). 

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, Toddwert said:

thats my question ... we thought Tork and Greene were going to be stars too... one cant stay health and other one is having a hard time playing first 

they need to work with Greene on learning to make more catches on his feet. Greene has a good glove hand and he could probably turn some number of the dives he currently makes into safer basket catches if he worked at it. The extreme ones are just going to take some maturity to decide if the game situation warrants it. The problem for a low scoring team is that it too often will...

I would note that Austin Jackson could put up  +20Rdrs seasons and he refused to dive for anything! You don't have to spend a lot of time on the ground to be a plus fielder.

Edited November 18, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Tiger337]

2 hours ago, Toddwert said:

thats my question ... we thought Tork and Greene were going to be stars too... one cant stay health and other one is having a hard time playing first 

I think Torkelson will eventually hit well enough to compensate for his defense.  He's not there yet though.  

Greene's injuries are a concern.  As Gehringer said, he could probably stay more healthy if he stopped diving, but sometimes that kind of aggressiveness is just part of a player's makeup and hard to change.    

 

[Edman85]

Adames was traded by Dombrowski. That was less pulling the plug, more going and getting one of the best pitchers in baseball and the price it took.

[Tenacious D]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think Torkelson will eventually hit well enough to compensate for his defense.  He's not there yet though.  

Greene's injuries are a concern.  As Gehringer said, he could probably stay more healthy if he stopped diving, but sometimes that kind of aggressiveness is just part of a player's makeup and hard to change.    

 

I think it’s in a player’s wiring.  I appreciate the hustle and commitment, but I’d rather take the occasional ball being safe than losing a crucial player for an extended period of time due to an injury.

[Toddwert]

13 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

I think Torkelson will eventually hit well enough to compensate for his defense.  He's not there yet though.  

Greene's injuries are a concern.  As Gehringer said, he could probably stay more healthy if he stopped diving, but sometimes that kind of aggressiveness is just part of a player's makeup and hard to change.    

 

yeah Griffey Junior had the same problem  and it limited his career for sure

[Edman85]

So... Greene's injury history.

He fouled a ball off his foot.

He had a stress fracture in his shin (long term wear and tear injury).

He had a torn UCL on a dive in the outfield.

 

The first one was a freak play. The second play isn't really a trying too hard injury. A shoulder separation or something like that on the dive could be an issue, but it's rare for a UCL injury to be a blunt force deal. Usually when the elbow UCL snaps, it's been coming for a while. This isn't Derek Hill, whose Hamstring was never healthy, who always separated his shoulder running into walls.

[Toddwert]

8 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

So... Greene's injury history.

He fouled a ball off his foot.

He had a stress fracture in his shin (long term wear and tear injury).

He had a torn UCL on a dive in the outfield.

 

The first one was a freak play. The second play isn't really a trying too hard injury. A shoulder separation or something like that on the dive could be an issue, but it's rare for a UCL injury to be a blunt force deal. Usually when the elbow UCL snaps, it's been coming for a while. This isn't Derek Hill, whose Hamstring was never healthy, who always separated his shoulder running into walls.

whatever the cause he hasnt been able to stay on the field and health is also a tool not talked about

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

So... Greene's injury history.

He fouled a ball off his foot.

He had a stress fracture in his shin (long term wear and tear injury).

He had a torn UCL on a dive in the outfield.

 

The first one was a freak play. The second play isn't really a trying too hard injury. A shoulder separation or something like that on the dive could be an issue, but it's rare for a UCL injury to be a blunt force deal. Usually when the elbow UCL snaps, it's been coming for a while. This isn't Derek Hill, whose Hamstring was never healthy, who always separated his shoulder running into walls.

Getting injured in a variety of different ways might be an even worse sign.  Some athletes have more duabilty that others and I think it's a "skill" or a trait.  Maybe another guy fouls a ball off his foot and only gets bruised.  Another player might be able to handle the daily grind without getting a stress fracture.  Or maybe Greene is just unlucky.  

I have a friend who runs an insane amount of mileage and has run 37 consecutive Boston marathon and never gets injured.  Other running friends (me included) get injured all the time with much more moderate training.   

[Tigermojo]

Why don't these guys where steel in their shoes and hand guards when they bat? It would save a lot of little bones getting broken.