Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 Baez has always been a strange unpredictable player. I am not expecting it, but I would not rule out a comeback. Even if he just gets back to the player he was in 2022 (offense and fielding), he'd be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 He looks like he had a few more pounds back then. The Baez we wish we had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor City Sonics Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Tigermojo said: He looks like he had a few more pounds back then. The Baez we wish we had. Maybe being surround by really good players was a different vibe than be expected to carry or lead a team and that's all it really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermojo Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 28 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said: Maybe being surround by really good players was a different vibe than be expected to carry or lead a team and that's all it really is. He's had up and down years during his career. Just more down with the Tigers, none up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 It seems like he is the hardest swinger in MLB, who gets the least results from it. I have seen articles about how he is spending the off-season strengthening his core and so on, and I ask myself how that is going to prevent him from looking like a 14-year-old on the low and away slider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: I have seen articles about how he is spending the off-season strengthening his core and so on, and I ask myself how that is going to prevent him from looking like a 14-year-old on the low and away slider. You are correct this additional work he is/will put in will not help him with the low and away slider. That will have to come from pitch recognition, and it is already well into his career for that - yet, it did seem at times last year (and more than the year before) he was getting a bit more selective. I do think where it 'may' make a difference is when he simply got beat with FBs or fouled them off the last couple years. A few years ago he may have been more fit and stronger through his body, hence timing and connecting better with pitches. I at least 'hope' that is some of it. Yes, father time is a factor, but Javy really is a gifted athlete and previously he may not have needed to work on things as much. He does seem motivated and of course has pride, so again we hope he can get back for 2-3 seasons close to where he was. If he can, that could really help the team regardless if he plays SS or 2B. From a lighter standpoint, someone has to take on the new role of 'best shape of his life heading to spring' now that Miggy has retired, lol. 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 5 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: It seems like he is the hardest swinger in MLB, who gets the least results from it. I have seen articles about how he is spending the off-season strengthening his core and so on, and I ask myself how that is going to prevent him from looking like a 14-year-old on the low and away slider. Sounds counter intuitive but if you look at his fangraph data, Javy's contact rates are not what has changed, while his HR/FB ratio is way down from his better years, so you can make a reasonable argument that he is not hitting the ball as hard when he hits it. I think we spend too much time fretting over Javy's zone control. That is all about pitch recognition and there is little a hitter can do change his ability to see the ball, all he can do try to get better hitting what he swings at - no matter where the pitch ends up. And strength to get the bat to the ball is a piece of that. Now that said, you can get quicker to the ball, which helps with the recognition problem, and I think Javy does have a fair amount of excess wind-up in his swing he might work on eliminating and if he comes so ST without any changes in his swing I won't be optimistic regardless of what he accomplishes in the weight room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Jim Cowan said: It seems like he is the hardest swinger in MLB, who gets the least results from it. I have seen articles about how he is spending the off-season strengthening his core and so on, and I ask myself how that is going to prevent him from looking like a 14-year-old on the low and away slider. The thing is he has always looked terrible at the plate, but he use to make up for it with power. He had the lowest k rate of his career this year. What was missing was power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 13 hours ago, Toddwert said: being interested and ponying up the cash to make it happen are two different things Yup. I was interested in Kathy Ireland back in the day. Alas, no reciprocation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, chasfh said: No, it wasn’t. He had a stated number well into the threes and there was no way he was going to accept an offer that lowballed it. I can ask for $600 million and not a penny less and if someone offers $450 million that IS a serious offer. If no one else offers above $375 mill and I take the $450 mill... Tell me again how that is NOT a serious offer? Just because it was lower than what I SAID I would not accept less of...? Any player can ask for the moon. $295 mill absolutely was a serious offer. Go ahead and stick to your subjective guns... I get it. But I'm not changing my mind either. They made a serious offer for Correa (sorry to sound like a broken record), OBJECTIVELY. Edited November 19, 2023 by 1984Echoes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 wow I actually agree with Echoes world might be ending 😛 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 295 million sounds like a pretty serious offer to me! It was better than the one-yeat deal he ended up with. Just because Correa didn't like the offer doesn't mean the Tigers were not serious in attempting to sign him. Unless the Tigers sign Yamamoto, we will never know if they made a serious offer because it will probably not be leaked under Harris (which is probably a good thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Toddwert said: wow I actually agree with Echoes world might be ending 😛 I agree with a lot of what says. I just am not alweays optimistic that what he says will actually happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 16 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I can ask for $600 million and not a penny less and if someone offers $450 million that IS a serious offer. If no one else offers above $375 mill and I take the $450 mill... Tell me again how that is NOT a serious offer? Just because it was lower than what I SAID I would not accept less of...? Any player can ask for the moon. $295 mill absolutely was a serious offer. Go ahead and stick to your subjective guns... I get it. But I'm not changing my mind either. They made a serious offer for Correa (sorry to sound like a broken record), OBJECTIVELY. We've seen your work here. You ain't getting $600 million. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 38 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I agree with a lot of what says. I just am not alweays optimistic that what he says will actually happen! I want what he says to happen but my old man bitteriness doesnt let me be so optimistic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38935421/sources-phillies-aaron-nola-agree-7-year-172m-deal Take Nola off the list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 19, 2023 Author Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: I can ask for $600 million and not a penny less and if someone offers $450 million that IS a serious offer. Correa publicly established a minimum of $330. The Tigers were to first to the table with an offer of $290, before any other team had made an offer. The chances of Correa taking that offer was zero, and everyone, including the Tigers, knew that. That’s not a serious offer. Edited November 19, 2023 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 13 minutes ago, chasfh said: Correa publicly established a minimum of $330. The Tigers were to first to the table with an offer of $290, before any other team had made an offer. The chances of Correa taking that offer was zero, and everyone, including the Tigers, knew that. That’s not a serious offer. 1) It was $295 IIRC. 2) Subjective opinion. No one beat the Tigers offer. The $330 mill is completely meaningless. Serious offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, chasfh said: Correa publicly established a minimum of $330. The Tigers were to first to the table with an offer of $290, before any other team had made an offer. The chances of Correa taking that offer was zero, and everyone, including the Tigers, knew that. That’s not a serious offer. He never got that 330 million offer, did he? The Tigers probably made that offer hoping that he would settle for the highest bid. I really don't think they made a 290 million offer just for the fun of it. I know people hate Avila, but why would he do that if he wasn't serious? Avila was always transparent to a fault It was a serious offer. Edited November 19, 2023 by Tiger337 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 Hindsight 20/20, they were right to not write a blank check to Correa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 6 hours ago, Tiger337 said: The thing is he has always looked terrible at the plate, but he use to make up for it with power. He had the lowest k rate of his career this year. What was missing was power. I think coming to the Tigers in the middle of them jumping on the 'control the strike zone' campaign was probably a mistake for Javy. It may be a better approach for a team in general, but you just don't want Javy to be tentative at the plate. Even if it does end up two feet outside, Javy can hit those if he stays with it. I don't want him second guessing himself halfway through the swing. I've said before I think the 'control the K zone' mantra is spot on for pitchers but questionable for hitters depending on what it means at the second level. Almost no hitter is trying to swing out of the zone. Few hitters need to be told to try and stay in the strike zone, OYOH most hitters can use any kind of help you can give them figuring out how to stay in the K zone. It may be a small but I think it's a real distinction between telling a hitter "You have to stay in the K zone" vs "We are going try and give you tools and strategies that will help you with pitch recognition." There is a significant shift in the responsibility on the coaching side depending on the formulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted November 19, 2023 Author Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: He never got that 330 million offer, did he? The Tigers probably made that offer hoping that he would settle for the highest bid. I really don't think they made a 290 million offer just for the fun of it. I know people hate Avila, but why would he do that if he wasn't serious? Avila was always transparent to a fault It was a serious offer. It’s true Correa didn’t get a $330 million offer. What he got instead was a $350 million offer, from the Giants. When that fell apart because of health, he then got a $315 million offer from the Mets, which fell apart for the same reasons. Point being, $275 million (which, as I just looked it up now, was the actual number) was never, ever going to cut it with Correa on the day it was offered him, and everybody paying attention at the time knew it wouldn’t. Why would Avila make an intentional lowball offer? It could be one of two reasons that I can imagine: The Tigers just came off a 77-win season and it looked like we’d turned a corner, and we definitely needed a shortstop. There was a lot of buzz that we should be in on Correa but Ilitch probably did not want to spend anything like $330MM on him, but we couldn’t be seen not going after the biggest free agents because optics. So we made the lowball offer we knew was going to be rejected so we could say see? We made a serious offer and he turned us down. Not our fault, we were serious. In fact it’s his fault that he didn’t take the life-changing money, so what the hell is wrong with that guy? Who wants a guy like that, anyway? And hey, that worked, because people were and are satisfied that it was a serious offer and Correa was an idiot for not taking it. Of course, for this reason to make sense would require Avila to be devious enough to come up with such a scheme, which you yourself imply is not at all likely, or else he was taking a marching order from Ilitch on it. But either way, this might not be what the case was, anyway, which leads to the second reason I can imagine: Al Avila is an ignorant negotiator who honestly didn’t understand that lowballing his target by more than $50 million on the very first offer made by any team was never going to fly. I would grant that under these circumstances, Avila made the offer with the serious intention of signing Correa for that amount, but that would also mean Avila is too ignorant to realize that Correa was never, ever, ever going to take a lowball offer like that as long as ten-plus-year deals were still on the table, as they still were in November of 2021. (Correa did end up taking 3/105 from the Twins not because he grossly overestimated his own worth, but because the health issues that were revealed after the Giants and Mets fiascos screwed up his market, and at that point, no way were the Tigers going to make 10/275 available to him again.) I would still conclude that despite the possibility the Tigers honestly miscalculated the sufficiency of the offer, it still can’t be regarded as a serious offer, because both sides, not just one, need to regard it as a serious offer for it to actually be so. Otherwise, the Tigers could have offered Correa one year at $8 million and said it was a serious offer, and by your defintion, you would have to agree that it was. Edited November 19, 2023 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 40 minutes ago, chasfh said: It’s true Correa didn’t get a $330 million offer. What he got instead was a $350 million offer, from the Giants. When that fell apart because of health, he then got a $315 million offer from the Mets, which fell apart for the same reasons. Point being, $275 million (which, as I just looked it up now, was the actual number) was never, ever going to cut it with Correa on the day it was offered him, and everybody paying attention at the time knew it wouldn’t. Why would Avila make an intentional lowball offer? It could be one of two reasons that I can imagine: The Tigers just came off a 77-win season and it looked like we’d turned a corner, and we definitely needed a shortstop. There was a lot of buzz that we should be in on Correa but Ilitch probably did not want to spend anything like $330MM on him, but we couldn’t be seen not going after the biggest free agents because optics. So we made the lowball offer we knew was going to be rejected so we could say see? We made a serious offer and he turned us down. Not our fault, we were serious. In fact it’s his fault that he didn’t take the life-changing money, so what the hell is wrong with that guy? Who wants a guy like that, anyway? And hey, that worked, because people were and are satisfied that it was a serious offer and Correa was an idiot for not taking it. Of course, for this reason to make sense would require Avila to be devious enough to come up with such a scheme, which you yourself imply is not at all likely, or else he was taking a marching order from Ilitch on it. But either way, this might not be what the case was, anyway, which leads to the second reason I can imagine: Al Avila is an ignorant negotiator who honestly didn’t understand that lowballing his target by more than $50 million on the very first offer made by any team was never going to fly. I would grant that under these circumstances, Avila made the offer with the serious intention of signing Correa for that amount, but that would also mean Avila is too ignorant to realize that Correa was never, ever, ever going to take a lowball offer like that as long as ten-plus-year deals were still on the table, as they still were in November of 2021. (Correa did end up taking 3/105 from the Twins not because he grossly overestimated his own worth, but because the health issues that were revealed after the Giants and Mets fiascos screwed up his market, and at that point, no way were the Tigers going to make 10/275 available to him again.) I would still conclude that despite the possibility the Tigers honestly miscalculated the sufficiency of the offer, it still can’t be regarded as a serious offer, because both sides, not just one, need to regard it as a serious offer for it to actually be so. Otherwise, the Tigers could have offered Correa one year at $8 million and said it was a serious offer, and by your defintion, you would have to agree that it was. The Tigers didn't offer 8 million. They offered 290 million. That sounds serious to me. It turned out he wasn't worth 330 million. So, maybe Avila was the smart one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCalTiger Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 I’ll take the 8 million. Seriously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 49 minutes ago, chasfh said: It’s true Correa didn’t get a $330 million offer. What he got instead was a $350 million offer, from the Giants. When that fell apart because of health, he then got a $315 million offer from the Mets, which fell apart for the same reasons. Point being, $275 million (which, as I just looked it up now, was the actual number) was never, ever going to cut it with Correa ... How about we try some facts: What did the Tigers offer Correa? 10 years $275 mill = $27.5MM AAV (For some reason I thought it was $295 mill but I was wrong...) What did the Twins offer Correa? 10 years $285 mill = $28.5MM AAV What did the Giants offer Correa? 13 years $350 mill = $26.9MM AAV What did the Mets offer Correa? 12 years $315 mill = $26.25MM AAV What is chasf calling the Tigers Offer? Not Serious. Come again? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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