2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[casimir]

11 hours ago, Edman85 said:

I did not know the new front office was "File and Trial" 

It'll be the new cool phrase.

[oblong]

just to play devil's advocate..... why is it always incumbent on the org to show loyalty to the player by giving in?  He didn't play for almost 2 years.  He got paid to rehab.  Yes, it's contractual that he gets paid but these proposals are very close so I don't see the logic in blaming one side for not caving.  It's business.  It'll be forogtten in 6 months.

 

[RatkoVarda]

Tigers will probably spend about $25K preparing their case that Mize sucks.

Pissing away 3.5M on Kelly, but trying to strong arm Mize over pocket change?

Another unforced error by Harris.

"So dumb" is so apt.

[Hongbit]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

just to play devil's advocate..... why is it always incumbent on the org to show loyalty to the player by giving in?  He didn't play for almost 2 years.  He got paid to rehab.  Yes, it's contractual that he gets paid but these proposals are very close so I don't see the logic in blaming one side for not caving.  It's business.  It'll be forogtten in 6 months.

 

It’s only $25k.   That’s the issue.  

[Tiger337]

At least we now have a better idea of who the five starters will be at the beginning of the season.  

[oblong]

and it's only $25 for Mize too.  I think people over react to these things.  I doubt Mize batted an eye over it. 

They won't go to arbitration.

 

[RatkoVarda]

10 minutes ago, oblong said:

just to play devil's advocate..... why is it always incumbent on the org to show loyalty to the player by giving in?  He didn't play for almost 2 years.  He got paid to rehab.  Yes, it's contractual that he gets paid but these proposals are very close so I don't see the logic in blaming one side for not caving.  It's business.  It'll be forogtten in 6 months.

 

Lowballing Candy by 2M and Chafin by 1M, is how Harris ended up with jack s*** at 3b and Shreve in the BP until they released him.

And now trying to "save" a rounding error in an attempt to prove some stupid point to someone.

[Edman85]

A lot of hyperbole in here this morning... It does strike me as penny wise, pound foolish though, but there's no tangible evidence out there that going to arbitration has any effect on performance or relations with a player going forward. I just wonder if preparing for and attending the hearing comes close to exceeding the salary gap.

It's also possible Mize's camp was pushing for a higher number during negotiations, or the negotiated contract was a deal with some kind of incentive structure, and then filed with a much lower number than he was asking for originally.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Edman85

[1776]

14 minutes ago, oblong said:

and it's only $25 for Mize too.  I think people over react to these things.  I doubt Mize batted an eye over it. 

They won't go to arbitration.

 

I would imagine Mize won’t forget this. According to Hinch, he busted his ass this off-season to be ready for spring training. He’s done everything they asked of him and now the org wants to have a pissing contest over $25K. What’s this, meal money saved? Cheap. 

[RatkoVarda]

3 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

A lot of hyperbole in here this morning... It does strike me as penny wise, pound foolish though, but there's no tangible evidence out there that going to arbitration has any effect on performance or relations with a player going forward. I just wonder if preparing for and attending the hearing comes close to exceeding the salary gap.

maybe not systemically, but both Corbin Burnes and Josh Hader were pretty vocal complaining about how the Brewers treated them in arbitration. Maybe that's a Milwaukee thing; maybe they are overly sensitive; and this is not the end of the world, but, again, so dumb perfectly sums this up.

[Edman85]

From 2012: https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/17566/overthinking-it-does-arbitration-drive-players-away/

McCosky yesterday mentioned this has gotten a lot less contentious over the years, but consider the source.

A lot of consternation in here over something that will likely be forgotten by late March.

[Hongbit]

I wasn’t bringing it up with any regards towards player feelings.   It’s seems so cheap and a giant waste of time over essentially nothing.  $25k to a MLB team translates to like 25 cents in real world.  Why bother? 

[Edman85]

1 minute ago, RatkoVarda said:

maybe not systemically, but both Corbin Burnes and Josh Hader were pretty vocal complaining about how the Brewers treated them in arbitration. Maybe that's a Milwaukee thing; maybe they are overly sensitive; and this is not the end of the world, but, again, so dumb perfectly sums this up.

And Burnes went and pitched fine last year, and agreed to a deal yesterday to avoid arbitration this year. As for Hader, the quotes I found weren't really at the team, just at the state of the arbitration model at the time which undervalued somebody in his relief ace role.

[Edman85]

Just now, Hongbit said:

I wasn’t bringing it up with any regards towards player feelings.   It’s seems so cheap and a giant waste of time over essentially nothing.  $25k to a MLB team translates to like 25 cents in real world.  Why bother? 

You don't know they were $25K apart in negotiations. Just $25k apart in what was filed later in the day.

[casimir]

How they got to a $25,000 disjoint is the $64,000 question.

[Hongbit]

1 minute ago, Edman85 said:

You don't know they were $25K apart in negotiations. Just $25k apart in what was filed later in the day.

That’s fair.  It’s most likely they were less than $100k apart in negotiations.  Which is still tiny in the grand scheme  

[oblong]

sure with Mize it's a small gap but add up those small gaps among several players and you have a big gap.

I'm very pro player on these kinds of things.  In this case I'm just pushing back on narratives that to me are unfounded.  By assuming the org should always bend to the player automatically gives the player the upper hand and puts them in a position to ask for more.  If an org says X, then the player can say "Well, let's make it X plus Y" and the org should bend just to be nice?

Casey Mize busted his ass and did everything the Tigers asked because they are paying his salary and he wants to recover and get a large deal down the line.  Le'ts not pretend he's doing them favors by doing that.  He's doing his job and got paid to do it.

 

[mtutiger]

Oblong and Ed have more or less covered anything I would say, but the only thing I'd add is that I highly doubt that this will have any impact whatsoever on the relationship between the team and Casey Mize. Zero.

[Tiger337]

35 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

You don't know they were $25K apart in negotiations. Just $25k apart in what was filed later in the day.

Wasn't there a case several years ago where a player filed for less than the team offered?  

[mtutiger]

26 minutes ago, oblong said:

I'm very pro player on these kinds of things.  In this case I'm just pushing back on narratives that to me are unfounded.  By assuming the org should always bend to the player automatically gives the player the upper hand and puts them in a position to ask for more.  If an org says X, then the player can say "Well, let's make it X plus Y" and the org should bend just to be nice?

I think you can be pro-player while still recognizing that this is a business and these negotiations have two parties who are going to negotiate their side to the best of their abilities. Fans hate it, understandably, because it isn't their money, but the fact that fans hate it doesn't make it not a reality. We've had this discussion in other contexts as well (ie. non-tenders during the last offseason, not gonna say the name because that horse has been flogged to death about 19 times).

That said, even if the gap between the two sides is larger than published, the outcry isn't very surprising given how it looks.

[theroundsquare]

58 minutes ago, Edman85 said:

I just wonder if preparing for and attending the hearing comes close to exceeding the salary gap.

this is what i thought.  i have to deal with this with clients all the time.  but it cuts both ways.  mize has to pay to prepare, too.  i don't know how agency contracts work, so i wonder if whatever he pays his agents, standard, includes the agency handling an arb hearing.  likewise, i don't know if the tigers would handle this in-house or if there is what amounts to 'outside counsel' that would come in, with additional cost

[Toddwert]

already said forget this post

Edited January 12, 2024 by Toddwert

[Tigermojo]

Most of the cases this year are hundreds of thousands apart. Webb and the Orioles are 75k apart. Bickford and the Mets are 85k apart. The 25k difference is the really silly part of this and seems like a waste of time.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Edman85 said:

It's also possible Mize's camp was pushing for a higher number during negotiations, or the negotiated contract was a deal with some kind of incentive structure, and then filed with a much lower number than he was asking for originally.

This. We have no reason to know that the numbers that each side took to arbitration were the same as the last numbers on the table in the negotiation - in fact likely not. The proof one way or the other is whether they go to arb in the end or not.

Edited January 12, 2024 by gehringer_2

[SoCalTiger]

Haven't the Tigers paid him the last two years not to pitch ? Why are they the bad guys ? And I doubt they need to spend one nickel in arb prep. "We came to our number because Mr. Mize has not pitched the last two years and we paid his salary and medical bills  during that time and are still giving him a raise during bad economic conditions".