2023-24 Detroit Tigers Offseason Thread

[theroundsquare]

Ichiro only.  I saw that and thought, what a weak class

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

I was surprised at the hesitation I saw on CC, not only here, but other places.  Then i looked at his numbers again.... wasn't as good as I remembered. Yeah he was good... but not as dominant. 

I wonder how many voters do, or have done,  what I have done without even looking at the numbers again? Just go with their gut and memory and that's that?

 

CC managed to play for a very long time, and the long time part is part of the equation - how many fans saw you play - how big a piece of the total memory of baseball you are. I think those are valid secondary  criteria for the Hall. But the good part of CC's career was actually pretty short, and the years he played when was only an average player make him a little questionable to me even though that big counting stat: wins, is an impressive number. I suppose if Morris is in adding CC doesn't break any ground.  🤔

[chasfh]

On 1/24/2024 at 1:38 AM, buddha said:

david ortiz is in the hall of fame and barry bonds (and arod and clemens) is not.  

because ortiz danced like a clown for the media and smiled like a happy fat dude. 

 

Which is why the whole PED thing is nothing but a cudgel to punish people who prefer to dance to their own tune than to that of Baseball and the running dog media.

[Edman85]

One time I would like McCosky to learn roster nuance. One time. Trey Wingenter was not non-tendered, and the non-tender deadline is not November 6.

[chasfh]

14 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Upside or downside surprise? I wouldn't have been surprised if he had been unanimous.

I didn't think Beltre was going to be unanimous but I did think he would top 98%.

[chasfh]

4 hours ago, oblong said:

I was surprised at the hesitation I saw on CC, not only here, but other places.  Then i looked at his numbers again.... wasn't as good as I remembered. Yeah he was good... but not as dominant. 

I wonder how many voters do, or have done,  what I have done without even looking at the numbers again? Just go with their gut and memory and that's that?

 

CC has a ring and a Cy Young, plus four other top five CYA finishes. He also has six All-Star appearances and more than 3,000 strikeouts. For the sabermetric kids, he cleared the 60 bWAR threshold and his career ERA+ of 116 is certainly high enough to qualify. On top of all that, he was a pleasant personality and played his final 11 seasons as a Yankee.

I think he's in first ballot next year, along with Ichiro and Billy Wagner.

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, chasfh said:

On top of all that, he was a pleasant personality

This for certain. Interviews with CC were always good listening.

[chasfh]

15 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

This for certain. Interviews with CC were always good listening.

Yes, his pleasantness was good for fans to see, and even more so, good for the media to deal with. That alone will win him votes, I'd bet.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I didn't think Beltre was going to be unanimous but I did think he would top 98%.

if i have to listen to one more chicago media person tell me how mark "the most hittable pitcher in baseball" buehrle belongs in the hall of fame i'm going to lose it.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Upside or downside surprise? I wouldn't have been surprised if he had been unanimous.

I'm surprised it was as high as it was.  I don't know that I'm surprised he made it on the 1st ballot.

16 hours ago, oblong said:

Any reasonable person knows he belongs but given the stupidity some voters have with regard to a fear of how high players percentage is, I understand the surprise.  Although to Hongbit’s point earlier I think those folks are dying off. 

This is Todd Helton's vote year by year.  That seems like quite a climb from 16.5% to 79.7%.

[casimir]

I hope Beltre's plaque doesn't have a hat.  I hope his plaque has some sort of reaction for when people inevitably touch his head.

[oblong]

18 minutes ago, casimir said:

I'm surprised it was as high as it was.  I don't know that I'm surprised he made it on the 1st ballot.

This is Todd Helton's vote year by year.  That seems like quite a climb from 16.5% to 79.7%.

Scott Rolen went through something similar.  I think part of it is crowded ballots plus too many voters not knowing what to do with guys like Clemens and Bonds and Arod. The 10 player limit mucks things up for some.  That's only part of the story but I think a number of voters have a "I'll get to that guy later" attitude.

[casimir]

4 hours ago, oblong said:

Scott Rolen went through something similar.  I think part of it is crowded ballots plus too many voters not knowing what to do with guys like Clemens and Bonds and Arod. The 10 player limit mucks things up for some.  That's only part of the story but I think a number of voters have a "I'll get to that guy later" attitude.

I know the crowded ballot theory is out there.  But I wonder how many voters are submitting full ballots to where we see these wacky voting variances on the sa,e player.

[casimir]

19 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Ichero and..... .. .  .    .         .

And just imagine what his totals would have been had he been stateside his whole career.

[chasfh]

11 minutes ago, casimir said:

And just imagine what his totals would have been had he been stateside his whole career.

If he were stateside his whole career he would not have been in the majors at 18, but he would have been as close to 4,000 hits as anyone. 

[Tiger337]

18 minutes ago, casimir said:

And just imagine what his totals would have been had he been stateside his whole career.

His hit total would have approached if not reached 4,000.  His rate stats are not as good as his reputation.  The Asian Pete Rose.   

Edited January 26, 2024 by Tiger337

[gehringer_2]

19 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If he were stateside his whole career he would not have been in the majors at 18, but he would have been as close to 4,000 hits as anyone. 

If he had come through any US system they'd have turned him into a 280/20hr guy.

🫤

[Tiger337]

17 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

If he had come through any US system they'd have turned him into a 280/20hr guy.

🫤

And he might have wound up just as valuable.  He would have been less interesting though.  The modern game lacks variety.  

[chasfh]

If anyone thinks American baseball can’t turn out exciting players, then they haven’t seen Corbin Carroll. 

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If anyone thinks American baseball can’t turn out exciting players, then they haven’t seen Corbin Carroll. 

They can, but they generally don't.  They want endless home runs and strikeouts above all else.  The new trend of more steals does give me hope though.  

[gehringer_2]

37 minutes ago, chasfh said:

If anyone thinks American baseball can’t turn out exciting players, then they haven’t seen Corbin Carroll. 

285/25. So you're saying without the HR's he could be Ichero?   😉

[SoCalTiger]

14 hours ago, chasfh said:

If anyone thinks American baseball can’t turn out exciting players, then they haven’t seen Corbin Carroll. 

Or Max Clark ?

[1776]

1 hour ago, SoCalTiger said:

Or Max Clark ?

Please, yes!

[casimir]

16 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

His hit total would have approached if not reached 4,000.  His rate stats are not as good as his reputation.  The Asian Pete Rose.   

But do his stat rates include his defense, specifically his laser cannon arm, or his baserunning?  From my understanding, Rose was kind of moved around the diamond less because of his defensive prowess and more just to get his bat in the lineup.  Baserunning, I don't know, maybe it was somewhere around a push?

[casimir]

Oh, and haircuts.  Rose has to be bottom of the barrel there, so points to Ichiro by default.