The Gaza War

[oblong]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

I believe chas said that he was unaware of “liberals” necessarily being anti Jewish. Using the definition I have accepted to describe liberals, I agree. I often hear negative comments about what this liberal said or what that liberal did. The word liberal for a lot of people is a substitute for the word Democrat. For years that was, imho, acceptable and, weighed against conservative principles, often true. 
However, the extreme left/radical left/progressive left are still, incorrectly so, labeled liberals. I believe that’s where the confusion arises in some of the conversations. 
My two cents worth….
 

Maybe.  But I never else said liberals so if a point is made in refutation against what I say then I will go off on the words I used. 

[RatkoVarda]

how does one "negotiate" with this?

 

[mtutiger]

16 hours ago, 1776 said:

I believe chas said that he was unaware of “liberals” necessarily being anti Jewish. Using the definition I have accepted to describe liberals, I agree. I often hear negative comments about what this liberal said or what that liberal did. The word liberal for a lot of people is a substitute for the word Democrat. For years that was, imho, acceptable and, weighed against conservative principles, often true. 
However, the extreme left/radical left/progressive left are still, incorrectly so, labeled liberals. I believe that’s where the confusion arises in some of the conversations. 
My two cents worth….
 

I think this is right, for what it's worth.

But by that same token, I'm not of the view that "liberals" should feel a need to rationalize why people are acting out in anti-Semitic ways... I don't think threats to Cornell's Jewish community or some of the other incidents of antisemitism that have manifested themselves since Oct 7 can simply be explained away as "thoughtful disagreements about the nature of Israel's government or Benjamin Netanyahu". There's only one way to explain things like that IMO.

Edited October 31, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

Honestly, this comment and reply is probably a succinct way to characterize what I find frustrating about the entire dialogue surrounding this, at least in the social media sphere anyway.

[Tigeraholic1]

We can all agree Israel has the right to remove Hamas but Gaza is a humanatarian disaster. They need to find a way to get supplies to the people of Gaza. The videos coming out of there are horrifying. Israel is breeding the next generation Hamas or whatever will eventually fill the void.

[1776]

Amid rising pressure on Egypt to admit Palestinian refugees, the country's prime minister, Mostafa Madbouly, said it remained committed to protecting its land and sovereignty regardless of the cost.

"We are prepared to sacrifice millions of lives to ensure that no one encroaches upon our territory,” Madbouly told a gathering in Sinai of military leaders, local tribal leaders, members of parliament and other politicians. The prime minister said Egypt would never allow any imposed situation or the settlement of regional issues at its expense.
 

-WSJ

[oblong]

The Arab nations don’t care who has to die or suffer. As long as in the end Jews also die then it’s fine.  

[chasfh]

8 hours ago, mtutiger said:

I think this is right, for what it's worth.

But by that same token, I'm not of the view that "liberals" should feel a need to rationalize why people are acting out in anti-Semitic ways... I don't think threats to Cornell's Jewish community or some of the other incidents of antisemitism that have manifested themselves since Oct 7 can simply be explained away as "thoughtful disagreements about the nature of Israel's government or Benjamin Netanyahu". There's only one way to explain things like that IMO.

Honest question, has it been established who it is making threats to the Cornell Jewish community? What little I have seen of the story has said the threats are anonymous. Has anyone been identified? 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

6 hours ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

We can all agree Israel has the right to remove Hamas but Gaza is a humanatarian disaster. They need to find a way to get supplies to the people of Gaza. The videos coming out of there are horrifying. Israel is breeding the next generation Hamas or whatever will eventually fill the void.

Lack of opportunity and dispar will breed future Hamas fighters that Israel will have to fight. The higher the Palestinian death toll gets the more hatred, contempt, and antisemitism this will breed too. Israel's ground invasion will solve little and possibly escalate the situation.

[gehringer_2]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Honest question, has it been established who it is making threats to the Cornell Jewish community? What little I have seen of the story has said the threats are anonymous. Has anyone been identified? 

speak of the devil....

 

[gehringer_2]

6 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Lack of opportunity and dispar will breed future Hamas fighters that Israel will have to fight. The higher the Palestinian death toll gets the more hatred, contempt, and antisemitism this will breed too. Israel's ground invasion will solve little and possibly escalate the situation.

Maybe. Removing ISIL from Iraq was a bloody mess too, but the situation there is now better than it was and Iraqi's don't seem to be pining for its return.  Hamas has to go and the Palestinians themselves either would not or more likely could not do it. Sure it possible and maybe even likely that in the end they will resent the fact that an non-Arab intervention did it more than they will be glad Hamas is gone, but you never know. The biggest problem I see is that Netanyahu will almost certainly bungle the aftermath of this war even worse than Rumsfeld did in his.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

.... The higher the Palestinian death toll gets the more hatred, contempt, and antisemitism this will breed...

How is it possible to increase Palestinian hatred, contempt, and antisemitism (wrong word, they are also Semites; try anti-Jewish hatred) towards the Jews?

Answer: It's NOT possible.

They already want to exterminate all Jews.

So: how is it possible to increase hatred, above that?

[oblong]

That letter is great. 

[gehringer_2]

30 minutes ago, oblong said:

That letter is great. 

Frank Bruni (who is also a professor at Duke) had a great column in the NYT about how the modern University's need to constantly be massaging the sensibilities of their student bodies has finally put them into a complete no-win situation. I'm finding it laughable that after every world event in recent years I'm getting public responses from every Tom/**** and Harry in the University admin. Frankly I don't give a flying **** what my Dean of Engineering thinks about the ME and would just soon never have to hear him opine about it. Not where I care about his competence. But here we are in 2023.

I'm hoping the by the 2030's that we reach a new era of 'Stay in your Lane'. Should I live long enough to see it.

Quote

The tense situation largely reflects the intense differences of opinion with which many onlookers, including students, interpret and react to the rival claims and enduring bloodshed in the Middle East. But it tells another story, too: one about the evolution of higher education over the past quarter-century, the promises that schools increasingly make to their students and the expectations that arise from that.

Many students now turn to the colleges they attend for much more than intellectual stimulation. They look for emotional affirmation. They seek an acknowledgment of their wounds along with the engagement of their minds. And that’s in significant measure because many schools have encouraged that mind-set, casting themselves as stewards of students’ welfare, guarantors of their safety, places of refuge, precincts of healing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/26/opinion/israel-palestine-college-campuses.html?searchResultPosition=1

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

Here’s some more on some of the left’s antisemitism. 

[Edman85]

5 hours ago, oblong said:

Here’s some more on some of the left’s antisemitism. 

The mention of TikTok got me thinking how that platform in particular can be an intentional source of disinformation. 

[oblong]

2 hours ago, Edman85 said:

The mention of TikTok got me thinking how that platform in particular can be an intentional source of disinformation. 

The young people use that app for everything.  It's their search engine.

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

The young people use that app for everything.  It's their search engine.

That was the intention of the PRC when they designed it. 

[mtutiger]

10 hours ago, chasfh said:

Honest question, has it been established who it is making threats to the Cornell Jewish community? What little I have seen of the story has said the threats are anonymous. Has anyone been identified? 

It has now, yes.

[mtutiger]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue for a ceasefire when this is Hamas' position

[romad1]

2 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I'm not sure how anyone can argue for a ceasefire when this is Hamas' position

He has the self-inflicted Gorbachev head bumps that Ayman al Zawahiri had.  Purportedly from praying so hard that he has calluses on his forehead.  A colleague with some direct experience says that some of the most charlatan-y in the Islamic World do that bump on purpose to sell used cars or snake oil. 

[mtutiger]

10 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Lack of opportunity and dispar will breed future Hamas fighters that Israel will have to fight. The higher the Palestinian death toll gets the more hatred, contempt, and antisemitism this will breed too. Israel's ground invasion will solve little and possibly escalate the situation.

This is all fine and dandy and all, but we have Hamas representatives out there saying Israel should be annihilated.

To be clear, I don't know what the solution is at this point because it is all incredibly messy. I have a lot of issues with Israel's government and the extent to which they created this reality. But the idea that they are gonna just ceasefire at this point or that they even should be expected to, in the context of October 7th or what Hamas' leadership believes about Israel, is just fantasyland. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by mtutiger

[RatkoVarda]

9 hours ago, oblong said:

Here’s some more on some of the left’s antisemitism. 

thank you for this.

[oblong]

By nature it's a partriarchal and subsrvient culture.  That leads people to accept their fate as pawns and that the "elders" know what's ultimately best for them and their future.  If they have to die protecting a Hamas leader then they are martyrs and the cause continues as they can use that to gain sympathy.

Here's an example.  In one of my workout classes we have a diverse lot of people.  Female instructor.  She's counting off an exercise we're doing.  Midway she'll often ask one of us to continue counting so she can go around and check everyone's form.  Every time she asks a muslim woman to count, this other muslim man will then count over her... as if her counting is not enough.  Every time.  My wife and other friends notice it and start to snicker when it happens.  We call it "man-counting"  If they ask questions the instructor will answer, then this guy will also answer too.  It's not a language thing.  It's just that they cannot lead the class and they should get their instructions from a proper Muslim man, not some white woman.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

By nature it's a partriarchal and subsrvient culture.  That leads people to accept their fate as pawns and that the "elders" know what's ultimately best for them and their future.  If they have to die protecting a Hamas leader then they are martyrs and the cause continues as they can use that to gain sympathy.

Here's an example.  In one of my workout classes we have a diverse lot of people.  Female instructor.  She's counting off an exercise we're doing.  Midway she'll often ask one of us to continue counting so she can go around and check everyone's form.  Every time she asks a muslim woman to count, this other muslim man will then count over her... as if her counting is not enough.  Every time.  My wife and other friends notice it and start to snicker when it happens.  We call it "man-counting"  If they ask questions the instructor will answer, then this guy will also answer too.  It's not a language thing.  It's just that they cannot lead the class and they should get their instructions from a proper Muslim man, not some white woman.

 

Multi-culturalism îs a fine thing  - to a degree. But to pretend there are no differences in culture that matter or that don't demand value judgment amounts to ethical/moral nihilism and is a dangerously naive outlook.