The Gaza War

[MIguy]

Hamas are certainly the bad guys in this conflict but that doesn't automatically make Israel the good guys.  

[mtutiger]

19 hours ago, ewsieg said:

Chuck, I found this article interesting talking about the blowback Fetterman has had after a statement in which he said Israel has the right to remove Hamas.  They cite some polls that were interesting as well which was interesting.  

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/sen-john-fetterman-faces-left-wing-backlash-israel-rcna122204

 

There was also Bernie Sanders getting absolutely flamed in his Twitter replies for recognizing the anniversary of the Tree of Life Synagogue Massacre iirc.

I'm sure those were all closet Trumpers too.

Edited November 2, 2023 by mtutiger

[mtutiger]

16 hours ago, pfife said:

I think that confrontation in that video happened b/c of the war.   

Confrontations have happened since October 7th against Muslims for what Hamas did on October 7th.

Are those OK too? Those only happened "b/c Hamas"

[pfife]

Just now, mtutiger said:

Confrontations have happened since October 7th against Muslims for what Hamas did on October 7th.

Are those OK too? Those only happened "b/c Hamas"

I don't think those are OK.  I also don't think the ones are against Jewish folks are OK either.

Do you think they're ok?  You said "OK too" which seems to suggest there are some you think are OK for which we add to. 

 

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, pfife said:

You said "OK too" which seems to suggest there are some you think are OK for which we add to. 

 

True to form lol

[pfife]

1 minute ago, mtutiger said:

True to form lol

Yes, I was asking for clarification for your words because I like to respond to what is posted.

I'm still interested in whether you think they're OK

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[mtutiger]

2 minutes ago, pfife said:

Yes, I was asking for clarification for your words because I like to respond to what is posted.

I'm still interested in whether you think they're OK

I never said they were OK. And I think you know that

[pfife]

5 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I never said they were OK. And I think you know that

Likewise, I also never said they were OK.

Who said they were OK in order to initially phrase the question to me as "Ok too"?

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[mtutiger]

5 minutes ago, pfife said:

Likewise, I also never said they were OK.

Who said they were OK in order to initially phrase the question to me as "Ok too"?

Quote

Like when I watch that video and see them chanting "shame" - I don't think they're chanting shame that he's Jewish, it's shame that apparently inherent in his Jewishness is that he supports Israel killing Palestinians.

That's obviously really not a good or appropriate generalization to make regarding Jewish people (Trump does it all the time), but I think the distinction is important.

Quote

I think it's important b/c I contend that the shaming wouldn't be happening to nearly the extent it is right now if it weren't for the killing associated with the war.  

Just as Islamophobia should be called out in all it's forms without equivocation, so should antisemitism. 

The distinctions don't matter, and to me at least, they come across like equivocations. If that was not your intent, I stand corrected and apologize.

Edited November 2, 2023 by mtutiger

[pfife]

Just now, mtutiger said:

Just as Islamophobia should be called out in all it's forms without equivocation, so should antisemitism. 

The distinctions don't matter, and to me at least, they come across like equivocations.

Thanks.  As you're admitting here that you're inferring on my words I'll let you take up the discussion with someone who actually holds the views you're inferring to me.

 

[smr-nj]

Omg,pfife…. Why are you purposely not highlighting that last sentence in which mtuTiger clearly states “if that was not your intention, I apologize.”

you’re just arguing for no good reason.
You have a literally jumped the shark. Oy vey.

[pfife]

6 minutes ago, smr-nj said:

Omg,pfife…. Why are you purposely not highlighting that last sentence in which mtuTiger clearly states “if that was not your intention, I apologize.”

you’re just arguing for no good reason.
You have a literally jumped the shark. Oy vey.

I did not cut anything.  That part was not there when I responded.  It was ETA.  Screenshot below.

 

However, now that you have pointed it out to me, I accept his apology and am glad to move on.  I also accept your apology for accusing me for intentionally disregarding something when I can prove I did not.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[gehringer_2]

It's too easy to say 'A pox on both your houses' in this conflict as there are toxic ideologies on both sides. There are militant zionists with messianic visions of driving all the arabs out of 'greater Israel' and there radical jihadi funadmentalists that want every jew driven into the sea. The distinction, which unfortunately has been growing smaller in the Netanyahu era, is that the radicals are a faction in Israel, they are Hamas.

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, MIguy said:

Hamas are certainly the bad guys in this conflict but that doesn't automatically make Israel the good guys.  

What are you saying here? Is Israel the bad guys now by trying to protect their citizens from further murders/ barbaric acts of terrorism?

 

Let me restate this:

Osama Bin Laden and his followers are certainly the bad guys in this conflict but that doesn't automatically make America the good guys.  

That makes LOTS of sense, right?

 

Let me make one additional statement: Hamas WANTS Palestinian casualties, women and children. Simply so they can win the propaganda war against Israel. They BUILT tunnels underneath refugee camps, hospitals, etc. They hide AMONGST their fellow Palestinians and shoot rockets at Israeli forces FROM hospitals, camps, etc.

Israel has no choice but to eliminate Hamas. And since Hamas is EMBEDDED in every aspect/ location of Palestinian life, Israel has no choice but to inflict civilian casualties, WHILE trying to hunt down Hamas murderers and terrorists.

Yes, they ARE the good guys. But Hamas has NO PROBLEM SACRIFICING Palestinians in an effort to paintbrush the Israelis as "just as terrible" as themselves. But I'm not blind. And I'm not stupid. I see EXACTLY what Hamas is doing. So yes, the Israelis are the good guys in this fight.

 

[1984Echoes]

One further point:

Gazans VOTED for Hamas. Hamas won an election over Fatah because Gazans WANTED Hamas leadership. 

I'm not saying Fatah is more desirable to the Gazans... there was many reasons they preferred Hamas...

But I would make a recommendation:

Maybe, next time, don't vote for Hamas.

[pfife]

Just now, 1984Echoes said:

One further point:

Gazans VOTED for Hamas. Hamas won an election over Fatah because Gazans WANTED Hamas leadership. 

I'm not saying Fatah is more desirable to the Gazans... there was many reasons they preferred Hamas...

But I would make a recommendation:

Maybe, next time, don't vote for Hamas.

When's the next time to vote?

[ewsieg]

This is kind of fun watching others deal with pfife's gaslighting instead of me.

[gehringer_2]

3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Gazans VOTED for Hamas

And the Germans 'voted' for Hitler (though not an absolute majority IIRC), the Iranians voted in one fair election for the mullah's (once) and the American's voted for Trump. It's absolutely true societies suffer for making bad corporate decisions. That hard part is that that doesn't make the fate of individuals any less tragic. There is no way to square that circle.

[pfife]

10 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

This is kind of fun watching others deal with pfife's gaslighting instead of me.

always the victim....

by gaslighting do you mean apologizing to me for misrepresenting me?

by gaslighting do you mean accusing me of things, then saying you didn't do exactly what you did?

by gaslighting do you mean admitting you're inferring my words instead of debating my actual words (at least 2 have admitted this just this morning)?

by gaslighting do you mean accusing me of not responding to posts that were proven didn't exist when I responded?

by gaslighting do you mean calling a thread where all of the aforementioned is happening a "great thread"?

Those happened.  Facts. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[oblong]

5 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

One further point:

Gazans VOTED for Hamas. Hamas won an election over Fatah because Gazans WANTED Hamas leadership. 

I'm not saying Fatah is more desirable to the Gazans... there was many reasons they preferred Hamas...

But I would make a recommendation:

Maybe, next time, don't vote for Hamas.

On Oct 9 in Dearborn at the community center palestinian supporters held a big rally.  There was dancing, flag waving, singing... someone got up on stage, described as a "leading local Palestinian activist" who said, quite clearly "Hamas are not terrorists".

A lot of locals called out the people at that rally for giving the impression they were cheering for what happened on Oct 7.  

Biden support amonng Arabs is supposedly down to 17% now.  That could matter in a state like Michigan.  Of course the alternative is no better friend, in fact a worse one.

 

[RatkoVarda]

last Gaza election was 2006; Hamas "won"; and then did not allow any more elections; just another reason to hope that Israel cripples Hamas; that would greatly benefit Gazans

[1984Echoes]

8 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

And the Germans 'voted' for Hitler (though not an absolute majority IIRC), the Iranians voted in one fair election for the mullah's (once) and the American's voted for Trump. It's absolutely true societies suffer for making bad corporate decisions. That hard part is that that doesn't make the fate of individuals any less tragic. There is no way to square that circle.

And Hitlerism/ Nazism/ Fascism/ Trumpism were all plagues that needed to be defeated.

I believe the Theo-Fascist Dictatorship in Iran also needs to be defeated.

 

I believe the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, dignity, and a chance to lead normal lives.

But Hamas is a terrorist organization hell-bent on murder.

They also need to be defeated.

At a high cost, based on their methodology (embedding themselves within Gazan civilians and civilian infrastructure in order to create maximum Gazan casualties to "paintbrush" the Israelis as "bad guys").

But they must be defeated nonetheless. Even at a high cost. And I am not advocating the high cost. I am stating that it is unavoidable. Based on Hamas' philosophy.

[1984Echoes]

14 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

And the Germans 'voted' for Hitler (though not an absolute majority IIRC), the Iranians voted in one fair election for the mullah's (once) and the American's voted for Trump. It's absolutely true societies suffer for making bad corporate decisions. That hard part is that that doesn't make the fate of individuals any less tragic. There is no way to square that circle.

Another nearby bad choices election results:

Venezuelans VOTED for Hugo Chavez and then VOTED for Nicholas Madura.

What did the country look like prior to Chavez? What does it look like right now?

[pfife]

54 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Just as Islamophobia should be called out in all it's forms without equivocation, so should antisemitism. 

The distinctions don't matter, and to me at least, they come across like equivocations. If that was not your intent, I stand corrected and apologize.

MTU, Sue brought this bolded ETA sentence to my attention, I had not seen it before she mentioned it.   I genuinely appreciate it.  It was not my intent and accept your apology.  Thanks again.

[ewsieg]

I was about to push back on your "Maybe next time, don't vote for Hamas" comment '84, but you're subsequent comments give more context and unfortunately, I think you're correct.

Yesterday I saw a comment about Israel having a blank check and I disagree with that, but I do agree that a "proportional" attack is going to be a lot different here than it might be elsewhere based on how Hamas wants to use Palestinians as pawns.  

I haven't heard follow up, but it was reported that Israel killed 4-5 hundred folks just to hit one major Hamas leader yesterday.  Didn't that original hospital bombing which turned out to be friendly fire originally to be said hundreds of people and it turned out to be just a handful?  Any number of innocent deaths is horrible, but also 1) I don't trust any numbers I hear coming from Hamas and 2) everything you stated is the reason why there will be higher casualties.