The Gaza War

[1984Echoes]

40 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

I see all that now. I guess I was naive.

Still, those Germans are precision engineers 😉

 

 

Context usually matters...

And not everyone is immersed in history to a depth they understand context.

So yes... those Germans are definitely precision engineers!

😉

[CMRivdogs]

One of the times I really miss Obama.

 

Edit. I think this ties in with Edman's post earlier...

Edited November 6, 2023 by CMRivdogs

[chasfh]

15 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

yes - and the usury thing applied in the Muslim/Ottoman world as well. So there are a lot of historical anticedents to why Jews ended up in what are today considered 'professional' fields. Restrictions on property ownership, insecurity of citizenship, coupled to a generally higher level of education. The Torah demands that children be taught to read the scriptures. In the ignorance of both the Christian and Islamic midieval worlds that became a source of both success, and cultural resentment. In the Islamic Ottoman empire a good part of the civil service were always Christians and Jews.

Jews have historically been greatly over-represented in western nations among intellectual elites, in the universities, and among the higher socio-economic classes, vs Christians even today, and I’ve long tried to figure out why that is. We know it’s not genetic, but then what is it? 

There could be some nepo at issue here, or otherwise preferential treatment among “birds of a feather” already in certain professions, trades, etc., But I have also wondered whether there are some aspects about religions of fervency, such as Christianity or perhaps Islam, that hinder such communities from stressing elite achievement, leading children and young adults to not get the proper education and support they would need to enter those circles. I do know from exposure to it that certain types of Christian doctrines value a culture of modesty, submission to strong central authority, and acceptance of one’s so-called fate (i.e., knowing one’s place); and that for the most part, Jews and Asians almost certainly don’t experience this kind of cultural restriction within their communities during their young lives. 

Yes, we all know doctors, lawyers, millionaires, etc., who are Christians, but I mean on balance. The presence of one Christian elitist doesn’t disprove the hypothesis per se. Anyone who might be offended by this entire idea can check out a meta-analysis of it, here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886907003674. While they attempt to explain why Jews have such a high degree of this success (they lean into “high intelligence” and “cultural values” as potential reasons), they don’t appear to have any kind of political bias that would support dismissing everything they present. Regrettably, for the purposes of this post, they don’t try to explain why Christians do not have the same rate of success at these so-called elite levels, and I’d like to find anything on this.

No one has to believe or accept any of what is being reported in this article, although I’m not going to debate the basic premise of it. I’m just trying to figure out what might explain what has led to this state of affairs and why.

[1984Echoes]

I came from a blue collar family that didn't prize education at all. I was the first to get a college degree.

Isn't that true of most Midwest areas? "We're hard-working blue collar people...".

And yes, some are in educated families and guide towards higher education rather than blue collar jobs but...

Does that make an impact in Christian communities? Hard-work/ blue collar ethic rather than higher ed ethic?

Remember also that European Jews were blocked from farming/ other types of blue collar types of jobs... Banking and finance are higher education... that tends to point an entire community in one specific direction...

[chasfh]

12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I came from a blue collar family that didn't prize education at all. I was the first to get a college degree.

Isn't that true of most Midwest areas? "We're hard-working blue collar people...".

And yes, some are in educated families and guide towards higher education rather than blue collar jobs but...

Does that make an impact in Christian communities? Hard-work/ blue collar ethic rather than higher ed ethic?

Remember also that European Jews were blocked from farming/ other types of blue collar types of jobs... Banking and finance are higher education... that tends to point an entire community in one specific direction...

I think we have a decent idea why Jews overindex for elite achievement—I am more interested in finding any cultural reasons that can explain why Christians underindex for it, or else do not achieve elite status at even nearly the same rate. All I have are hypotheses about it.

[ewsieg]

I laughed at this response.  I did see some prominent democrats push back on this as well, which is more important than a snarky but fun response like Miller's.

[oblong]

38 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Jews have historically been greatly over-represented in western nations among intellectual elites, in the universities, and among the higher socio-economic classes, vs Christians even today, and I’ve long tried to figure out why that is. We know it’s not genetic, but then what is it? 

There could be some nepo at issue here, or otherwise preferential treatment among “birds of a feather” already in certain professions, trades, etc., But I have also wondered whether there are some aspects about religions of fervency, such as Christianity or perhaps Islam, that hinder such communities from stressing elite achievement, leading children and young adults to not get the proper education and support they would need to enter those circles. I do know from exposure to it that certain types of Christian doctrines value a culture of modesty, submission to strong central authority, and acceptance of one’s so-called fate (i.e., knowing one’s place); and that for the most part, Jews and Asians almost certainly don’t experience this kind of cultural restriction within their communities during their young lives. 

Yes, we all know doctors, lawyers, millionaires, etc., who are Christians, but I mean on balance. The presence of one Christian elitist doesn’t disprove the hypothesis per se. Anyone who might be offended by this entire idea can check out a meta-analysis of it, here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886907003674. While they attempt to explain why Jews have such a high degree of this success (they lean into “high intelligence” and “cultural values” as potential reasons), they don’t appear to have any kind of political bias that would support dismissing everything they present. Regrettably, for the purposes of this post, they don’t try to explain why Christians do not have the same rate of success at these so-called elite levels, and I’d like to find anything on this.

No one has to believe or accept any of what is being reported in this article, although I’m not going to debate the basic premise of it. I’m just trying to figure out what might explain what has led to this state of affairs and why.

It’s an element of “privilege”. Being a small number of the population and largely in urban areas then a culture where education is stressed then it just gets passed down from generation to generation. success gets passed down.   The blatant anti Semitism during and after WWII created isolated communities.  We don’t have mass immigration of other Jews coming here to take up the remedial jobs like in other cultures. In Detroit the Jews stuck to their areas of comfort and stayed “high” so to speak. 

[oblong]

21 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think we have a decent idea why Jews overindex for elite achievement—I am more interested in finding any cultural reasons that can explain why Christians underindex for it, or else do not achieve elite status at even nearly the same rate. All I have are hypotheses about it.

I think it’s just because there’s so many. The nation was founded by one group of Christians then mass immigration later on from another group of Catholic Christians. They emigrated west and the world needs ditch diggers.  They got here first.  I suspect practicing or orthodox Jews didn’t feel comfortable out in the Wild West. 

[1984Echoes]

FYI (just in case anyone is interested...); do protesters have a case that Israel is committing "war crimes"?

No, no they don't. From an Urban War expert (military and international law) at West Point (an opinion but, still... with legal basis for such):

https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-m-expert-urban-warfare-113717094.html

[gehringer_2]

On 11/6/2023 at 8:53 AM, chasfh said:

Jews have historically been greatly over-represented in western nations among intellectual elites, in the universities, and among the higher socio-economic classes, vs Christians even today, and I’ve long tried to figure out why that is. We know it’s not genetic, but then what is it? 

why would it be a difficult premise that educational excellence of a particular type is embedded in the culture? The heart of Judaism is a legal system, and the in depth study, commentary and teaching of that legal system has been an imperative in cultural Judaism pretty much all the way back to the loss of Solomon's empire, but it was of particular importance as the thread of continuity for Judaism through the centuries of diaspora in Europe's middle ages. By comparison the fundamental admonitions in Christianity are to love your neighbor or go out and preach. Possibly admirable pursuits but not particularly intellectual ones.

The only comparable movement I can think of off the top of my head in Christianity would be the Jesuits, and I would guess that at least a disproportionate number of US lawyers have some Jesuit education somewhere in their background.

Edited November 7, 2023 by gehringer_2

[MIguy]

Every time I hear Hillary speak on something going on somewhere, I'm impressed with just how knowledgeable she is on the particular topic.

 

 

[oblong]

 

[Tiger337]

15 minutes ago, MIguy said:

Every time I hear Hillary speak on something going on somewhere, I'm impressed with just how knowledgeable she is on the particular topic.

 

 

The Clintons are not very likable, but both are smart.  Actually, Bill apparently was likable since he won two elections, but he's one of these people that I knew was a sleazebag the first time I heard him talk, much like Trump.  

[Tigeraholic1]

Politicians are all fake. Point in case, she lost me after this:

 

 

[ewsieg]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12742815/IDF-reach-gates-Gaza-hospital-hiding-Hamas-HQ-Israel-forces-enter-facility-uncover-terror-groups-secret-base.html

I mean, if I was at a hospital, I wouldn't expect a guy running around with an RPG.   I'm sure he's not Hamas though. </sarcastic>

[Tigeraholic1]

 

[1984Echoes]

It appears that Hamas' Gaza headquarters may actually BE underneath Shifa Hospital.

[smr-nj]

1 hour ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

 

If ever members of an organization deserved the description of “vermin”….

Absolutely disgusting.

[oblong]

this one led to a lot of bull**** I saw on social media from people I know.  It's horrifying because I hate to say it, the culture is naive and already sheltered in a bubble based on patriarchal forces and the BBC should be above this.

[chasfh]

16 minutes ago, oblong said:

this one led to a lot of bull**** I saw on social media from people I know.  It's horrifying because I hate to say it, the culture is naive and already sheltered in a bubble based on patriarchal forces and the BBC should be above this.

Is it BBC reporting this, or is it BBC reporting that another news organization is reporting this? Or is that a distinction without a difference? If BBC reports that Reuters is reporting this, is it BBC who are engaging in blood libel? What does the original Reuters report say about it, or doesn’t that matter?

[oblong]

42 minutes ago, chasfh said:

Is it BBC reporting this, or is it BBC reporting that another news organization is reporting this? Or is that a distinction without a difference? If BBC reports that Reuters is reporting this, is it BBC who are engaging in blood libel? What does the original Reuters report say about it, or doesn’t that matter?

Option C... It's worse.  They report another org says it but they get what wrong that other org said.

This image is from the first tweet in response to what I posted, at least on my machine it is.  I didn't post the link because sometimes the formatting hides it.

[oblong]

 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:41 AM, Tigeraholic1 said:

Politicians are all fake. Point in case, she lost me after this:

Hillary Clinton is absolutely a fraud and a phony, as is her husband Bill. I genuiely don't believe a lot of the politicians on the left are phony or fake though. I believe Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, AOC, Rashida, Cori Bush, Ayanna Pressley, are exactly who they are when the no one is around. I know for a fact Rashida is having met her dozens of times.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Reuters: Why is Israel Attacking Southern Gaza

Israel told Gazans to flee to the southern part of Gaza and now they are attacking and bombing areas they told people to flee towards just weeks ago. I will reiterate that Israel has a right to defend itself and fight back against the brutal, barbaric attacks lead by Hamas. They do not have a right however to cut people off of basic human rights like food, water, electricity, shelter. They do not have a right to chase everyone out of their homes and bomb them into rubble or hold people hostage at a hospital, with no ability to leave the facility at all as is happing at the al-Shifa hospital.

This is a humanitarian crisis that is only going to get worse. We cannot continue to support Israel at all costs in their apparent plans to invade and occupy Gaza. We have to be willing to draw a line in the sand at some point and call out what they are doing.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

.... They do not have a right however to cut people off of basic human rights like food, water, electricity, shelter. They do not have a right to chase everyone out of their homes and bomb them into rubble or hold people hostage at a hospital, with no ability to leave the facility at all as is happening at the al-Shifa hospital...

Couple points:

Israel is opening safe-corridors out of Al-Shifa. There was at one point a week or two ago over 10,000 in Al-Shifa. There is now less than 2,500. Stating Israel is not allowing anyone to leave Al-Shifa is BS. Sorry.

Hamas shoots at people leaving Al-Shifa and other hospitals to try to keep the Gazans trapped as hostages/ human shields at those hospitals. And shoots at people in the safe corridors trying to escape. It is Hamas that is holding both Israeli's and Gazans hostage. FYI.

Hamas has hidden 200,000 gallons of fuel and refuses to give any to hospitals or any other Gazan, they've hidden stores of food and water. But you know... for Hamas' purposes: **** their fellow Palestinians. They could care less if Palestinian babies die in hospitals without fuel. As long as Israel gets the blame for Hamas' war crimes.. they're fine with dead Palestinians. The higher the Palestinian death count the better for Hamas.

Bombing south Gaza? Do you mean, Hamas is attacking Israeli forces with missiles from south Gaza and Israel is returning fire? Because that would be the truth, versus Hamas propaganda.

I'm not interested in Hamas' lies or propaganda.

Just to set the record straight.