The Gaza War

[gehringer_2]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

Another nearby bad choices election results:

Venezuelans VOTED for Hugo Chavez and then VOTED for Nicholas Madura.

What did the country look like prior to Chavez? What does it look like right now?

Ha - forget Chavez/Maduro. The truth has always, and probably will always be that in once you find yourself in a war, the imperative is to save the lives of your own people. Despite the all the analysis since, the logic of 1945 for the US was correct, even if the total casualties including Japanese were higher (which is very debatable) the bombs saved *American* lives and that is the only calculus that can matter to the people making the decision. The same holds true for Israel. By the normal definition - the 'good guy' will try to minimize civilian casualties, but in the end not to the detriment of the strategic imperatives. 

[mtutiger]

15 minutes ago, pfife said:

MTU, Sue brought this bolded ETA sentence to my attention, I had not seen it before she mentioned it.   I genuinely appreciate it.  It was not my intent and accept your apology.  Thanks again.

No problem.

[pfife]

3 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

Sure, and I don't love this Israeli government at all and they bear responsibility for where we are at.

But I expect people to be able to compartmentalize the issues with Israel's government and actual cases of antisemitism happening in the US and abroad since October 7th. Just as people can compartmentalize their issues with Hamas from average everyday Palestinians in the US and abroad. And apparently that is difficult to do for some.

And equally frustrating is the fact that, dollars to donuts, if these cases of antisemitism were being perpetrated by a different demographic (ie. middle aged white guys), there would be very little hesitancy to call it out (and to assume labels) and not couch it some words about Netanyahu's government or disapproval of it. But it's different here because ????

I just see a real lack of consistency here, and that's what I don't like. It's no different than college administrators who were pulling their punches in the wake of October 7th when they seem to have little issue weighing in, for better or worse, on other hot-button issues.

There's a real inconsistency in reactions in this forum pre/post Oct 7 as well. I'm not sure why given the argument that the war doesn't matter that multiple people have raised. 

[ewsieg]

56 minutes ago, pfife said:

There's a real inconsistency in reactions in this forum pre/post Oct 7 as well. I'm not sure why given the argument that the war doesn't matter that multiple people have raised. 

I'm interested in your take with this.  I felt like there were some possible inconsistencies in this forum pre/post Trump, but not so much pre/post Oct 7.  Seems like this is a war hawk forum for the most part now.  

[pfife]

30 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

I'm interested in your take with this.  I felt like there were some possible inconsistencies in this forum pre/post Trump, but not so much pre/post Oct 7.  Seems like this is a war hawk forum for the most part now.  

I think the forum is definitely war hawk moreso than previously but I think that happened with Ukraine war.    The current war is pushing it more hawkish.    But I also do think that Democrats and Liberals (not leftists, people slightly to the right of them) in general have become more war hawkish.   I am more hawkish as well.  

It's my contention that there was a prevalence, but a much lower prevalence, of antisemitic actions on campuses prior to October 7, and an explosion after October 7th.   However, before October 7th, discussions of antisemitism on campuses was largely absent here.   

Now I will go into hypothetical land so feel free to disregard my hypothetical as you see fit:    I also think that prior to October 7th, if a poster started posting about WHY the prevalence of antisemitic actions on campuses was happening/increasing (which are literally crimes) they would not be accused of condoning such acts.  I am a trained and degreed criminologist - trying to explain why crimes happen in order to decrease their prevalence - is the essence of the field.   I've worked on studies on the etiology of lynchings, software piracy, drug use, and several other crimes. In no way were those efforts to condone such acts, and arguing so indicts (pun intended) the entire field of criminology.   They are efforts to understand the cause and proscribe potential solutions.

Thus far, the only one that has come close to vocally agreeing with my take is 84 and I appreciate him reading what I actually posted and seeing my point. 

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[RatkoVarda]

 

[ewsieg]

I can agree with that. 

In regards to your hypothetical, I think that's on target too.  I know I've tried to understand a subject on this site only to feel like others are feel I'm condoning the GOP or Trump, but I'm sure I've done that to others as well.  Trying to not bias a topic by bringing in a perceived bias is pretty much a constant thought in my head when I post here.

[mtutiger]

56 minutes ago, pfife said:

Now I will go into hypothetical land so feel free to disregard my hypothetical as you see fit:    I also think that prior to October 7th, if a poster started posting about WHY the prevalence of antisemitic actions on campuses was happening/increasing (which are literally crimes) they would not be accused of condoning such acts.  

I guess the exception I take is that I could envision a scenario where the perpetrators of said crimes look different than the ones we have seen on campus and there would be a lot less hemming and hawing about the reasons and more focus on the overt act of antisemitism.

I'm sure I'll be told I'm wrong, but that's what I'm seeing in the broader discussion 

[pfife]

13 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I guess the exception I take is that I could envision a scenario where the perpetrators of said crimes look different than the ones we have seen on campus and there would be a lot less hemming and hawing about the reasons and more focus on the overt act of antisemitism.

I'm sure I'll be told I'm wrong, but that's what I'm seeing in the broader discussion 

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting but you seem to be saying that reactions here differed because of the way the perps look.   Is that a fair interpretation of what you mean?

[mtutiger]

1 minute ago, pfife said:

Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting but you seem to be saying that reactions here differed because of the way the perps look.   Is that a fair interpretation of what you mean?

I think you know what I mean.

Quote

And equally frustrating is the fact that, dollars to donuts, if these cases of antisemitism were being perpetrated by a different demographic (ie. middle aged white guys), there would be very little hesitancy to call it out (and to assume labels) and not couch it some words about Netanyahu's government or disapproval of it. But it's different here because ????

 

[mtutiger]

Wonder what prompted this letter....

[pfife]

6 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I think you know what I mean.

 

I actually didn't, thanks for the clarification.

But why a hypothetical?  What you call a hypothetical actually happened.   We know before 10/7 that many of the perps were the folks you described and yet there was less calling out here by a lot. 

[mtutiger]

10 minutes ago, pfife said:

I actually didn't, thanks for the clarification.

I don't believe you. We'll leave it that.

[Biff Mayhem]

3 hours ago, pfife said:

 

by gaslighting do you mean calling a thread where all of the aforementioned is happening a "great thread"?

Those happened.  Facts. 

 

5 hours ago, Biff Mayhem said:

You're just singlehandedly derailing a really good thread with these spun out emotional responses.

Look chief, stop misrepresenting me to try to make your points and instead respond to what I actually said. Have some stones and apologize.  STOP GASLIGHTING ME!!!! Apologize and move on.

So that's what this mornings contributions have looked like from the rest of the board's perspective...

 

[pfife]

4 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't believe you. We'll leave it that.

Believe what you will about me.  

[pfife]

1 minute ago, Biff Mayhem said:

 

Look chief, stop misrepresenting me to try to make your points and instead respond to what I actually said. Have some stones and apologize.  STOP GASLIGHTING ME!!!! Apologize and move on.

So that's what this mornings contributions have looked like from the rest of the board's perspective...

😉

That's awesome.

I apologize for misquoting you 

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[oblong]

10 minutes ago, pfife said:

I actually didn't, thanks for the clarification.

But why a hypothetical?  What you call a hypothetical actually happened.   We know before 10/7 that many of the perps were the folks you described and yet there was less calling out here by a lot. 

there's a lot of things we don't talk about here.... I didn't realize the site and it's users had an editorial responsibility to discuss.... everything.  

This sub forum consists of like 15 regular posters and we have about 5 active threads,of which 2 or 3 might have posts from the last week.  

 

[pfife]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

there's a lot of things we don't talk about here.... I didn't realize the site and it's users had an editorial responsibility to discuss.... everything. 

 

I didn't realize it either until others brought it up.

[Tigeraholic1]

8 minutes ago, mtutiger said:

I don't believe you. We'll leave it that.

He won't, its like a constant loop or broken record.

[pfife]

3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

He won't, its like a constant loop or broken record.

you sure are obsessed with me

did you notice that MTU had the stones to apologize to me for doing what you did?

Edited November 2, 2023 by pfife

[pfife]

18 minutes ago, Biff Mayhem said:

So that's what this mornings contributions have looked like from the rest of the board's perspective...

 

Thanks for admitting it's your subjective interpretation.  I appreciate the honesty.  

[smr-nj]

FFS. 😵‍💫

[Tigeraholic1]

17 minutes ago, pfife said:

you sure are obsessed with me

did you notice that MTU had the stones to apologize to me for doing what you did?

OMG grand wizard of motown forums let me get on my knees and beg for all the forgivness. May I please kiss the ring? It would be my honor. I will start my days with five hail marys and 16 pfife aplogizes. Will that make you feel importanter chief?

[smr-nj]

Washington Post story (but I don’t have a subscription or link)

Here’s the kind of thing a whole lot of nations should be looking into.

 

[pfife]

9 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

OMG grand wizard of motown forums let me get on my knees and beg for all the forgivness. May I please kiss the ring? It would be my honor. I will start my days with five hail marys and 16 pfife aplogizes. Will that make you feel importanter chief?

Grand wizard?  Care to clarify?