The Gaza War

[Mr.TaterSalad]

3 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

The US isn't doing ****. Israel is the one doing the bombing. The hubris of Americans to think they can control Israel. Biden and the US are the reason the death toll isn't higher. You want to help Palestinians then demand Egypt open their border and have these Arab countries take in refugees. 

I want all of what you said to happen and happen ASAP. I want Egypt to open it's northern border. I want Jordan and Lebanon to take in Palestinian refugees. I want our government and the Biden Administration to continue to place pressure on those countries to open their borders up to Palestinians.

In-regards to the idea that we can't do anything, I disagree there. We know damn well when this is all said and done that Netanyahu and his government are not going to allow for a two-stale solution. We know they aren't going to let the PLO or any entity govern Gaza as a Palestinian state. We know he isn't going to stop his military campaign either until he wipes out Hamas, no matter the count of civilian causalities. The one thing we can do is place conditions on the military aid we offer to Israel. Conditions around a two-state solution, more targeted campaigns, allowing for more humanitarian aid to get in, etc.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Why can't we place conditions on military aid to Israel? We can condemn Hamas and work with Israel to defend itself while not writing them a blank check to do anything they want. Why is that so taboo?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Biff Mayhem]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

We know damn well when this is all said and done that Netanyahu and his government are not going to allow for a two-stale solution. We know they aren't going to let the PLO or any entity govern Gaza as a Palestinian state. 

Sorry, I need to be reminded of who has offered to give up land for peace a couple times and which side vehemently refused.

[Motown Bombers]

 

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Why can't we place conditions on military aid to Israel? We can condemn Hamas and work with Israel to defend itself while not writing them a blank check to do anything they want. Why is that so taboo?

The US has. The fact that more people aren't did is because of the US. The fact is, Israel can make Gaza disappear without US aid. The thing is, people are demanding a ceasefire and that ceasefire is directed only at Israel. 

[1984Echoes]

10 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

... So in the meantime, what do we do as the US government? Do you believe we should keep sending military aid over to Israel without conditions placed on that aid? Sending aid over knowing that ...

I believe the US should continue to send aid to Israel without conditions in order to...

Prevent further BABY BUTCHERING by Hamas.

That works for me.

Even if it may not work for you.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

Just now, 1984Echoes said:

I believe the US should continue to send aid to Israel without conditions in order to...

Prevent further BABY BUTCHERING by Hamas.

That works for me.

Even if it may not work for you.

I'm not going to respond to this in the way I want to respond because it's just going to turn this into an ugly conversation. No sense in either one of us resorting to that kind of a conversation as it won't solve anything and will just get carried away eventually.

[1984Echoes]

7 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I want all of what you said to happen and happen ASAP. (2) I want Egypt to open it's northern border. I want Jordan and Lebanon to take in Palestinian refugees. I want our government and the Biden Administration to continue to place pressure on those countries to open their borders up to Palestinians.

In-regards to the idea that we can't do anything, I disagree there. (1) We know damn well when this is all said and done that Netanyahu and his government are not going to allow for a two-stale solution.

(3) We know they aren't going to let the PLO or any entity govern Gaza as a Palestinian state.

(4) We know he isn't going to stop his military campaign either until he wipes out Hamas, no matter the count of civilian causalities.

(5) The one thing we can do is place conditions on the military aid we offer to Israel. Conditions around a two-state solution, more targeted campaigns, allowing for more humanitarian aid to get in, etc.

(1) Gaza had its OWN government. Not Israeli occupation. This point is irrelevant in the context of the current Gaza War. AFTERWARDS, Two-state may be brought up again in the context of the greater solution to Palestinian nation-state to include the West Bank. But GAZA was already independent PRIOR to them invading Israel with murderous intent.

(2) Then why aren't we hearing a clamoring for this? Why does Egypt get a PASS for not opening its borders and it's ALL on Israel? I hear nothing, from anyone, in the way of criticism for not alleviating Gazan suffering by allowing them a temporary home outside of Gaza whilst Israel goes after the Hamas terrorists that butchered its citizens. THAT would reduce civilian casualties, would it not?

(3) They already did. Look at the results. I don't care who governs Gaza, and neither does Israel. HOWEVER, whomever governs Gaza... Israel is ADAMENT that terrorists not be allowed into Gaza and are demanding control oversight or similar over such. And they have EVERY RIGHT to make that demand! Period.

(4) Hamas must be wiped out, at least effectively, IMO. I don't do terrorism or butchery. But to declare Israel as "no matter the count" is BS. They've given multiple and ample warnings to areas that contain terrorist tunnels, terrorists, etc. Your statement here is disinformation, pure and simple.

(5) Disagree 100%. The US has already brokered humanitarian aid and increases of such aid, has already pressured targeted campaigns in which Israel has COMPLIED, and Two-State is for AFTER Gaza, not a PART of the Gaza campaign. Sorry.

[1984Echoes]

11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I'm not going to respond to this in the way I want to respond because it's just going to turn this into an ugly conversation. No sense in either one of us resorting to that kind of a conversation as it won't solve anything and will just get carried away eventually.

You think that Hamas entering Israel and murdering babies and families is "conversation"? 

That's on you, not me.

If you are unable to be honest that Hamas went into Israel and committed butchery, then you're not an honest person and we can't have an honest "conversation". Because that's EXACTLY what Hamas did. Like it or not.

[pfife]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

That doesn't change anything I've said.

Hamas is the impediment to a ceasefire, not Israel.

Unless you are advocating Israel to a unilateral ceasefire, basically saying to Hamas: "Sure, we'll give you whatever you want."

We are in agreement.  I said ceasefire is not impossible to which you explicitly agreed.    I have advocated nothing else.  

[Motown Bombers]

I wonder where all these ceasefire left wing tankies were when Asad was killing all his people? So many young leftists siding with terrorists is deeply unsettling to me. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

You think that Hamas entering Israel and murdering babies and families is "conversation"? 

That's on you, not me.

If you are unable to be honest that Hamas went into Israel and committed butchery, then you're not an honest person and we can't have an honest "conversation". Because that's EXACTLY what Hamas did. Like it or not.

I think what Hamas did is brutal and barbaric and have stated that here a dozens of times. I asked this question earlier and it went unanswered. How many civilian deaths is allowable as a proportional response to what happened on October 7th. Please give me a number. 20,000? 40,000? 60,000?

[pfife]

1 hour ago, 1776 said:

I’m not suggesting anything. Them’s the facts.

Again, I will let you take that up with those that disagree with your facts as they are here rather explicitly arguing otherwise.  Tis not I who you disagree with, I also recall those statements from Bibi during the previous ceasefire.  I definitely do see Bibi as one of many obstacles to temporary ceasefire or permanent peace.

[1984Echoes]

2 minutes ago, pfife said:

We are in agreement.  I said ceasefire is not impossible to which you explicitly agreed.    I have advocated nothing else.  

Gotcha...

I thought your statement was leading somewhere but it was a simple statement instead, basically: "We've done it before, we can do it again."

[1984Echoes]

1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I think what Hamas did is brutal and barbaric and have stated that here a dozens of times. I asked this question earlier and it went unanswered. How many civilian deaths is allowable as a proportional response to what happened on October 7th. Please give me a number. 20,000? 40,000? 60,000?

0.

But this is war.

Expecting 0 or any targeted number thrown out just to be "smart" doesn't change the fact that...

This is war.

I'll turn the tables on you: What was the acceptable amount of innocent German civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hitler? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Afghani civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to get Osama Bin Laden? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Japanese civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hirohito (actually the Japanese Military Industrialists but, Hirohito for brevity if not accuracy)? Please give me a number.

[Motown Bombers]

2 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

0.

But this is war.

Expecting 0 or any targeted number thrown out just to be "smart" doesn't change the fact that...

This is war.

I'll turn the tables on you: What was the acceptable amount of innocent German civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hitler? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Afghani civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to get Osama Bin Laden? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Japanese civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hirohito (actually the Japanese Military Industrialists but, Hirohito for brevity if not accuracy)? Please give me a number.

Christ almighty if TikTok existed during WWII.  Dumbass kids would be gluing themselves to the street to hand over Poland to Germany. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

The point I'm trying to drive home is that you can both condemn Hamas and at least hope for some what of a proportional response from the IDF. You can't sit ideally by and blame all civilian causalities on Hamas, just as you can't blame them all on the IDF and Israel. I don't think you can simply say if they would simply surrender this would end. We all know it isn't that simple.

I believe at some point that there gets to be a number of civilian casualties where we have to universally call for a cessation. It isn't just the far left that believes this either. Emmanuel Macron and the French government believe this as well. They too called for a ceasefire in Gaza. Are Macron and the French government wrong? They aren't a bunch of far leftists.

[1984Echoes]

One further example:

If Bin Laden were hiding in Gaza instead of Afghanistan, and he was hidden somewhere in the tunnels underneath a mosque or a hospital and Hamas was shooting at us during our military search in Gaza, to find him...

Would you expect to see anything different?

 

I guess I could answer that myself in that I think we would DEMAND Egypt to open its borders to Gazan refugees until we found and arrested/ killed Osama, reducing civilian casualties. But... I don't think Israel is capable of putting the same amount of pressure on Egypt that we can. In fact, I KNOW that they can NOT. Hence, Egyptian borders are CLOSED to Gazan refugees.

[1984Echoes]

3 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

The point I'm trying to drive home is that you can both condemn Hamas and at least hope for some what of a proportional response from the IDF. You can't sit ideally by and blame all civilian causalities on Hamas, just as you can't blame them all on the IDF and Israel. I don't think you can simply say if they would simply surrender this would end. We all know it isn't that simple.

I believe at some point that there gets to be a number of civilian casualties where we have to universally call for a cessation. It isn't just the far left that believes this either. Emmanuel Macron and the French government believe this as well. They too called for a ceasefire in Gaza. Are Macron and the French government wrong? They aren't a bunch of far leftists.

The easy solution, and I've already stated as such:

Unconditional surrender by Hamas.

You say that that will never happen...?

Guess what?

Impasse.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said:

One further example:

If Bin Laden were hiding in Gaza instead of Afghanistan, and he was hidden somewhere in the tunnels underneath a mosque or a hospital and Hamas was shooting at us during our military search in Gaza, to find him...

Would you expect to see anything different?

 

I guess I could answer that myself in that I think we would DEMAND Egypt to open its borders to Gazan refugees until we found and arrested/ killed Osama, reducing civilian casualties. But... I don't think Israel is capable of putting the same amount of pressure on Egypt that we can. In fact, I KNOW that they can NOT. Hence, Egyptian borders are CLOSED to Gazan refugees.

On a side note, probably the worst think Biden did was pull out of Afghanistan. His approval rating took a hit and never recovered. No president is ever going to pull out of a war now. These antiwar tankies gave him no credit for doing what they demanded he do. 

[1984Echoes]

Also: Guess what WE demanded of Germany and Japan?

Unconditional surrender.

Until that happens, I give full support to Israel, and they've done nothing so far to break me away from unconditional support.

I want an unconditional surrender by Hamas.

[1984Echoes]

Just now, Motown Bombers said:

On a side note, probably the worst think Biden did was pull out of Afghanistan. His approval rating took a hit and never recovered. No president is ever going to pull out of a war now. These antiwar tankies gave him no credit for doing what they demanded he do. 

That's a really good point.

I didn't look at it from that view...

[1984Echoes]

17 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

.... How many civilian deaths is allowable as a proportional response to what happened on October 7th. Please give me a number. 20,000? 40,000? 60,000?

PS: One further point:

I am not being unsympathetic to Gazans here either. Egypt MUST open its borders to allow in temporary Gazan refugees. It, mostly, solves the humanitarian crisis, reduces (I won't say eliminates) civilian casualties, etc.

So... my choices are: a full-blown pressure campaign on Egypt to open it's border with Gaza, on an unconditional surrender by Hamas, and NOT on support of Israel.

I am simply making different choices than you are.

[pfife]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

PS: One further point:

I am not being unsympathetic to Gazans here either. Egypt MUST open its borders to allow in temporary Gazan refugees. It, mostly, solves the humanitarian crisis, reduces (I won't say eliminates) civilian casualties, etc.

So... my choices are: a full-blown pressure campaign on Egypt to open it's border with Gaza, on an unconditional surrender by Hamas, and NOT on support of Israel.

I am simply making different choices than you are.

Egypt opening it's borders just makes the humanitarian crisis even more Egypt's problem, it doesn't solve it.   

Edited December 13, 2023 by pfife

[Mr.TaterSalad]

24 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

0.

But this is war.

Expecting 0 or any targeted number thrown out just to be "smart" doesn't change the fact that...

This is war.

I'll turn the tables on you: What was the acceptable amount of innocent German civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hitler? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Afghani civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to get Osama Bin Laden? Please give me a number.

What was the acceptable amount of innocent Japanese civilian casualties we should have allowed when we were trying to defeat Hirohito (actually the Japanese Military Industrialists but, Hirohito for brevity if not accuracy)? Please give me a number.

First off, comparing what Hamas did, as brutal and barbaric as it was, to the scale of what Hitler did is not comparable. I do believe Hamas should be stopped and I don't want them to exist. But October 7th and the holocaust are not on scale with one another. Hitler was out to exterminate an entire ethnic and religious group of people. The United States and allied forces had to stop the holocaust and the civilian lives lost there were terrible, but it was done in the name of saving millions of people from being erased from the Earth. You can point out that's what Hamas wants to do to Israel and that is true. But the response have to involve some level of proportionality to the war crime committed.

Second, I would have never invaded Afghanistan and tried to occupy the country as we did. That was a mistake in my mind. I would have gone after the Al-Qaeda camps and key figures behind the 9/11 attacks. But I would have not tried to topple the Taliban and spend 20 years trying to force a government onto people that don't even identify themselves fully as Afghani people and identify more with their tribes and religious sects. Occupations throughout history have often failed, like the Soviet one in the 1970s.

Third, it's my understanding that when Japanese Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki took office in April 1945 he and Emperor Hirohito wanted to surrender, but several high ranking Japanese military generals did not. It is also my understanding that Japan wanted to keep its empire but Truman did not want that. I'm not enough of an expert or historian to concretely know whether or not the bombs should or should not have been dropped. There is a part of me that wonders if the US had negotiated to let the Japanese Empire stay in fully place, not just keep figurehead status, could that have ended the war without the bomb being dropped. Could we have demonstrated the power the the bomb nearby Japan without dropping it on densely populated areas. Again though, I'm simply not enough of an expert or historian to answer that question concretely.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[1984Echoes]

Just now, pfife said:

Egypt opening it's borders just makes the humanitarian crisis even more Egypt's problem, it doesn't solve it.   

It allows International aid to GET to the Gazan refugees, which is currently a problem with the closed border. And as far as having a million Gazans in the Sinai, the problem for Egypt would be one of security I believe, as a few terrorists would slip out of Gaza along with the innocent. But outside of that, I don't think Egypt would be in it alone in supporting the refugees. I think the world would come together and do everything possible to assist.

IMO.