1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 23 minutes ago, chasfh said: Israel Defense Forces. Thank you. Also a party with interest. Yes... But I think somewhat more reliable than Hamas. Their estimates are: 1,000 Hamas killed during the Oct 7 invasion. 10,000 Hamas killed in Israel's response. And an estimated 3,000 kids that were ammunition and weapons "runners" for Hamas in the tunnels. So obviously those are very round numbers and hard to verify, and subject to some wide variances. But... Hamas: Does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. They've come under large criticism for that. By stating "28,000 civilians killed"... is an attempt at propaganda... but noone believes 100% of those killed were ALL civilians. So they've broken it down further but: There were 30 Hamas Battalions in Gaza with roughly 36,000 Hamas fighters. Again, round numbers. But roughly 1,000-1,200 soldiers per Hamas battalion. Israel has "destroyed" 26 of those battalions, only 4 remain in Rafah. That doesn't state who was killed versus who was injured versus who just ran away... But it does give some indication of what Israel has accomplished so far in its campaign to destroy Hamas military. The Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas), looks ridiculous saying 500 of the 28,500 killed were Hamas military when 30,000 or so of their soldiers are no longer combat-capable. One way or the other. The 14,000 may not be EXACT. But it's a HELL of a lot closer to reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 33 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: And commanded by a known, habitual liar, with... Sinwar. Right? The Hamas terrorist refusing to surrender and using 100 Israeli hostages to surround and protect himself from Israel's wrath? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The thing that gets me is these leftist Hamasholes are so passionate about this conflict that they protest anything Jewish. They were protesting at a Jewish hospital in New York last night. This is whole movement is not about Palestine. It's about anti-semitism and they got useful idiots like Rashida Tlaib and the mayor of Dearborn backing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Yes... But I think somewhat more reliable than Hamas. … The 14,000 may not be EXACT. But it's a HELL of a lot closer to reality. They are a party with an interest, so there’s no reason to believe they are giving us the truth, any more than when American cops say they shot a guy because the guy lunged/shot at him. It’s fair to say you hope it’s true, and you believe it’s true, but you can’t say it’s objectively true and be taken seriously. FWIW, the mainstream American media is reporting the 30,000+ number and citing it as coming from the Gaza Ministry of Health, and I haven’t seen them routinely report a counter number from IDF. While I understand how fashionable it is say one completely distrusts the media, and that people believe it makes them look cool and smart to say they are one big vast worldwide conspiracy and they should never ever ever ever EVER be trusted, I don’t believe that’s true, and I also believe that they must be properly vetting the information enough to report it consistently and across practically all channels. Since “the United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions”, and I have found no similar description of how IDF calculates the number, I believe the 30,000+ number passes the smell test more than the IDF number. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The Gaza Ministry of Health is literally Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 23 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: The Gaza Ministry of Health is literally Hamas. "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions ..." This is good enough for me at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 11 minutes ago, chasfh said: "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions ..." This is good enough for me at the moment. So the same ones that lied about Israel blowing up a hospital? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 58 minutes ago, chasfh said: ... I believe the 30,000+ number passes the smell test more than the IDF number. So you believe there are 30,000 dead Gazan civilians. And 0 Hamas militant dead. That's what Hamas is reporting. Do I have that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I think the 30,000+ number passes the smell test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: So you believe there are 30,000 dead Gazan civilians. And 0 Hamas militant dead. That's what Hamas is reporting. Do I have that correct? No, you do not appear to have that correct. The Gaza Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties in its reports. You're free to reject the Gaza ministry's number, and I am free to be skeptical of the IDF number, and we can go on being friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Also: The IDF is ROUTINELY reporting their numbers. Mainstream media is generally not reporting them. All you have to do is look however, if you want to find them. Also: Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas)... does NOT report militant deaths. It reports ALL deaths, as civilian. That is NOT good faith, it is Propaganda. The "good faith" that you are quoting, is a good faith effort to report DEATHS. I believe they are accurate in that number. I have never said otherwise. What I am disputing is their characterization of those deaths being 100% civilian. That is NOT good faith. And they will NEVER report militant deaths. All Gazan deaths are civilian deaths (per Hamas), and that's it. Can IDF #'s be verified? No. Are they rounded numbers? Yes. Are Gazan (Hamas) militant deaths closer to ZERO, as you are stating... out of the 30,000 that the Health Ministry is reporting? Or 14,000 militant deaths out of the 30,000. Or somewhere in between. Lastly: I'm using COMMON SENSE. ZERO militant deaths out of 30,000...? Is that reasonable? Shouldn't common sense tell you that militant deaths can NOT be ZERO. You and Tater seem to be having problems using common sense for some reason... Let me know when you guys catch on to this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Chas would literally believe terrorists over Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: No, you do not appear to have that correct. The Gaza Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties in its reports. You're free to reject the Gaza ministry's number, and I am free to be skeptical of the IDF number, and we can go on being friends. I accept the Hamas Health Ministry's number of dead. 30,000 or whatever the latest number is. I REJECT that there are ZERO militant deaths in that number. IDF says 14,000... they put out DAILY reports, which are easy to find. Maybe that number is somewhere in between 0 and 14,000. So here's a question, friend-to-friend: How many militant deaths out of those 30,000 do you believe there are? Just as a WAG. Edited February 14 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 17 minutes ago, chasfh said: I think the 30,000+ number passes the smell test. And just so I'm not being misunderstood (sorry for beating a dead horse here...): I am FINE with the 30,000. I am NOT arguing against the 30,000. What I am arguing against is Hamas Health Ministry with ZERO militant deaths. The IDF number is NOT total deaths: It is COMBATANT (militant) deaths ONLY. If the 14,000 is disputable because (A) It's only an estimate (B) difficult at best to verify (C) IDF has an agenda. It is DEFINITELY not 0 militant deaths. Common sense: Several sources estimated Hamas with 30 battalions at approximately 36K soldiers (including US Intelligence, not just Israeli intelligence, IDF, mainstream media, etc.). 26 of those battalions are no longer operable. The last 4 are in Rafah. Out of the 26 Hamas battalions that the IDF has rendered "inoperable"... How many of those 30,000 or so Hamas militants that are no longer "operable", are actual deaths? OUT of the 30,000 dead civilians that the Health Ministry is reporting? Edited February 14 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 13 minutes ago, chasfh said: .... The Gaza Health Ministry does not distinguish between combatant and civilian casualties in its reports... Which is propaganda. They do that on purpose. Under Hamas orders. "Do NOT report combatant casualties. Report them ALL as civilians." For propaganda purposes. Do you not realize this? I'm just asking... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 19 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Chas would literally believe terrorists over Israel. Glad you’re not making this personal! 😝 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, chasfh said: Glad you’re not making this personal! 😝 Nothing personal. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas and Hamas are terrorists. It’s unfortunate you believe them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Nothing personal. The Gaza Health Ministry is run by Hamas and Hamas are terrorists. It’s unfortunate you believe them. I believe their top level numbers. Whatever the number of deaths and injuries are... What I DON'T believe is their refusal to report militant casualties. In effect, 100% deaths are civilian = propaganda. Just my 2 cents to add to this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The Squad, who are so anti genocide, strike again. Surprisingly I do not see Tlaib or Omar on this list. They must have went home early. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Just now, 1984Echoes said: I believe their top level numbers. Whatever the number of deaths and injuries are... What I DON'T believe is their refusal to report militant casualties. In effect, 100% deaths are civilian = propaganda. Just my 2 cents to add to this... Yup, I don't take the reports of terrorists at face value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 21 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I accept the Hamas Health Ministry's number of dead. 30,000 or whatever the latest number is. I REJECT that there are ZERO militant deaths in that number. That’s fine, because the Gaza ministry isn’t saying there were ZERO militant deaths. They are saying 30,000+ people died. I would guess there are a decent number of militant deaths among them, but then, that’s just a guess. In terms of where IDF numbers are published, honestly, if I’m not seeing it in the news stories I see about this campaign, which admittedly is not as many as you read, then I’m not seeing it. I don’t read everything there is about this topic and I don’t seek out deep stories about it, so if you want me to believe the 14,000 number, you’re gonna have to give me the link to the data. Because when I google “14,000 militant deaths IDF reports”, I’m coming up dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Nothing personal. 32 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Chas would literally believe terrorists over Israel. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 "The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations. The Health Ministry doesn’t report how Palestinians were killed, whether from Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages or other means, like errant Palestinian rocket fire. It describes all casualties as victims of “Israeli aggression.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 9 minutes ago, chasfh said: 🤣 "Hamas, as Gaza’s ruling authority, exerts control over the Health Ministry. Hamas tightly controls access to information and runs the government media office that offers details on Israeli airstrikes." https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 Hamas = Terrorists, you said you believed their numbers. Not sure why you are taking these basic facts personally. Edited February 14 by Motown Bombers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 I don't save my searches/ articles so let me get back to you on this... I know I can find the reports or media articles on this. I've read several but... But I'm multi-tasking so it'll take at least a few minutes not including all other stuff that I am doing... But I will get you some links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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