Motown Bombers Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 This right from IDF has it at 9,000 soldiers but it hasn't been updated in a month. https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/january-24-pr/war-against-hamas-interim-data/elimination-of-terrorists/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 This is the AP but it's incomplete. I've seen fuller reports than this.. this is citing ONLY Hamas fighters killed in Gaza after Oct 7th. It is NOT referencing Hamas fighters ON Oct 7th (IDF estimated that at 1,000) nor is it publishing IDF's estimate of "runners" (NON-Combatants running ammo and weapons in Hamas tunnels - IDF estimate of 3,000). But it's at least a start... I'll be back later with more: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-12-2024-4ade5edf47711c6b0c13d1380980de2b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 This is not on the number of Hamas fighters killed or civilian casualties, but, rather... Compares what the US faced in Iraq and Syria battles, what the difficulties IDF is facing in Gaza... and why there is so much destruction in Gaza trying to root out Hamas fighters. It's a good read. By Foreign Policy.com: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Hamas = Terrorists, you said you believed their numbers. Not sure why you are taking these basic facts personally. You said “Chas would literally believe terrorists over Israel”, despite that I had posted exactly why I thought the 30,000+ number passes the smell test, listing sources far beyond just the Gaza ministry, because those sources do the necessary legwork to vet the information that none of us have the resources to do, and I trust those sources to do that. That’s why I think the number seems reasonable So not only did you make an intellectually-dishonest sweeping generalization that’s demonstrably untrue, you made a lazy intellectually-dishonest sweeping generalization that’s demonstrably untrue. You need to do better than that. Edited February 15 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Just now, chasfh said: You said “Chas would literally believe terrorists over Israel”, when I posted exactly why I thought the 30,000+ number passes the smell test, listing sources far beyond just the Gaza ministry, because they do the necessary legwork to vet the information that none of us have the resources to do, and I trust those sources to do that. So not only did you make an intellectually-dishonest sweeping generalization that’s demonstrably untrue, you made a lazy intellectually-dishonest sweeping generalization that’s demonstrably untrue. You need to do better than that. You need to stop believing terrorist ie Hamas. The sources all point back to Hamas numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: You need to stop believing terrorist ie Hamas. The sources all point back to Hamas numbers. You’re skirting what I’m saying. I’m not surprised. Also, this nonsense about believing terrorists instead of Israel? A statement which assumes Israel’s hat is immaculately white? Everybody's hands are super dirty in that region, so there are no white hats there. “Israel right or wrong” is not a good look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 12 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: This is not on the number of Hamas fighters killed or civilian casualties, but, rather... Compares what the US faced in Iraq and Syria battles, what the difficulties IDF is facing in Gaza... and why there is so much destruction in Gaza trying to root out Hamas fighters. It's a good read. By Foreign Policy.com: https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/02/14/gaza-war-israel-civilian-deaths-urban-warfare-hamas/ I appreciate your effort at supplying some links, but I am really mostly interested in exactly where the 14,000 number comes from. That’s the one you hung your hat on and I want to understand where you got that. Mostly, I want to know how IDF came up with that specific number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Wikipedia is citing Israeli sources with 10,000+ militants killed as of Feb 1, 2024: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Hamas_war Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: I appreciate your effort at supplying some links, but I am really mostly interested in exactly where the 14,000 number comes from. That’s the one you hung your hat on and I want to understand where you got that. Mostly, I want to know how IDF came up with that specific number. I'm trying to get back to that 14,000... I've posted links to 11,000+ and am trying to re-find that last piece... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 This district went from John Dingell to this POS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Times again citing the 11,000+ but I am, missing that last piece... https://www.timesofisrael.com/commander-2-troops-killed-in-gaza-blast-raising-ground-operation-death-toll-to-232/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 LOL Tlaib and the squad do nothing but virtue signal. The least she could do is virtue signal on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I'm trying to find that last piece I had read (I think it was about two weeks ago) that was an estimate of fighters versus non-combatants inside the tunnels and an estimate of how many of each had been killed in the tunnels (the estimated 3,000 non-combatants...) but haven't found it yet. Similar but not exactly related: 160 dead Gazan children from building Hamas' terrorist tunnels: https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/deaths-of-160-palestinian.html#:~:text=“Hamas officials openly admitted that,leading Jewish human rights NGO. Hamas using child soldiers: undergoing terrorist training (including kidnapping skills): https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-accuses-hamas-islamic-jihad-of-using-child-soldiers/#:~:text=Hamas and Islamic Jihad have,the terror groups' military wings. Another general statement of usage (how Hamas is using child soldiers) during this war. Message runners, explosives hidden in vegetables, battlefield casualty assessors, etc. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-destroys-shifa-hospital-tunnels-as-fighting-intensifies-in-central-southern-gaza/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 13 hours ago, GoBlue23 said: She released a statement explaining her non-vote. I just don't care about any of this, it's such a pathetic waste of time. Instead of this bull****, they could have spent the time debating a bill that actually might improve something here in the USA. Or at the very least provide some concrete direction for our efforts in the Middle East, whatever that might be. Since the resolution came from Lois Frankel D-FL, basically a sworn enemy who quit the progressive caucus more or less to get away from Rashida, it feels to me like she brought this virtue-signal vote specifically intending to checkmate Rashida by forcing her to vote against it, excite the media about it, and cost her the election this November, which I think nearly all Democrats in Congress would like to see. I would think the next move would be to undertake efforts box her into a corner and subdue her so her constituents would see she’s feckless and kick her out. She didn’t actually vote against it, but she might as well have as since voting merely present is basically the same thing. We’ll see if it all works. Grab some popcorn … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 11 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: I'm trying to find that last piece I had read (I think it was about two weeks ago) that was an estimate of fighters versus non-combatants inside the tunnels and an estimate of how many of each had been killed in the tunnels (the estimated 3,000 non-combatants...) but haven't found it yet. Similar but not exactly related: 160 dead Gazan children from building Hamas' terrorist tunnels: https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/deaths-of-160-palestinian.html#:~:text=“Hamas officials openly admitted that,leading Jewish human rights NGO. Hamas using child soldiers: undergoing terrorist training (including kidnapping skills): https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-accuses-hamas-islamic-jihad-of-using-child-soldiers/#:~:text=Hamas and Islamic Jihad have,the terror groups' military wings. Another general statement of usage (how Hamas is using child soldiers) during this war. Message runners, explosives hidden in vegetables, battlefield casualty assessors, etc. https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-destroys-shifa-hospital-tunnels-as-fighting-intensifies-in-central-southern-gaza/ Sorry to hammer you on the 14,000, but you did say IDF said the number was 14,000, that they put out reports on a daily basis, and that the reports are easy to find. I want to be able to take you at your word for these things, but since this was in direct conflict with the Gaza-reported number, I was asking so I could examine how the IDF came up with that number, because I couldn’t find anything on it. The only thing I can find with the number 14,000 is from November, when Gaza health officials reported that the death toll had exceeded 14,000. You don’t have to keep looking for the number, because I did find a report from two days ago by IDF saying they’d killed over 10,000 ”operatives”, plus 1,000 “terrorists”, inside Gaza, with no mention of additional deaths of civilians. So, to your earlier point, it looks as though IDF has, at the very least, the same kind of blind spot on reporting total deaths that you claim the Gaza health ministry has in not separating civilian deaths from those of operatives or terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 You scrutinize Israel's numbers more than the terrorists numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, chasfh said: Or at the very least provide some concrete direction for our efforts in the Middle East, whatever that might be. Since the resolution came from Lois Frankel D-FL, basically a sworn enemy who quit the progressive caucus more or less to get away from Rashida, it feels to me like she brought this virtue-signal vote specifically intending to checkmate Rashida by forcing her to vote against it, excite the media about it, and cost her the election this November, which I think nearly all Democrats in Congress would like to see. I would think the next move would be to undertake efforts box her into a corner and subdue her so her constituents would see she’s feckless and kick her out. She didn’t actually vote against it, but she might as well have as since voting merely present is basically the same thing. We’ll see if it all works. Grab some popcorn … Tliab has a seat for life in this district if she wants it. Unless they change the lines. She's pretty much got a solid square, 8 mile except for a bit that jets up into Southfield, that covers Dearborn, Dearborn Hts, Westland, Garden City, stretches west to canton and stops just north of I 94 to the South. The only area that could dent her would be "Lily White Livonia" which is still a thing. The Arab/Muslim community is no longer just Dearborn. They've moved along the Ford/Warren Ave corridor going west. So many churches have closed and property bought to open up another Mosque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, chasfh said: Sorry to hammer you on the 14,000, but you did say IDF said the number was 14,000, that they put out reports on a daily basis, and that the reports are easy to find. I want to be able to take you at your word for these things, but since this was in direct conflict with the Gaza-reported number, I was asking so I could examine how the IDF came up with that number, because I couldn’t find anything on it. The only thing I can find with the number 14,000 is from November, when Gaza health officials reported that the death toll had exceeded 14,000. You don’t have to keep looking for the number, because I did find a report from two days ago by IDF saying they’d killed over 10,000 ”operatives”, plus 1,000 “terrorists”, inside Gaza, with no mention of additional deaths of civilians. So, to your earlier point, it looks as though IDF has, at the very least, the same kind of blind spot on reporting total deaths that you claim the Gaza health ministry has in not separating civilian deaths from those of operatives or terrorists. Yeah the IDF reports keep getting posted and are easy to find. I believe the 3K was a separate report/ analysis and now I don't remember where it originated. IDF, Intelligence analytics or otherwise. The 11K is definitely IDF. The balance may have been from somewhere else, sorry to conflate the two. The IDF has a blind spot, but not what you are stating. Their blind spot is in verification. If their number is 11,000, there is no way to verify that. However, in no possible way is the number zero. I accept the Health Ministry total deaths number. I cannot accept that it is zero fighters' deaths. And I KNOW that Hamas is using child soldiers in their midst. Their deaths also are not ZERO. That means a proportion of the "children's deaths" were of those placed in harms way by Hamas. I apologize that I cannot get you an EXACT number of non-combatant deaths (associated with Hamas activities) in an easy to find daily report. But if the 11,000 or 14K or anywhere + or - around those numbers is not an EXACT number of deaths of fighters and non-combatants associated with Hamas activities... Why do you care that it is not exact? There are often numbers given as estimates. These are estimates. They will not be able to be verified to an exact amount: ever. Anyone interpreting the Hamas Health Ministry's death totals as being 100% civilians, like Tater keeps trying to do, is being disingenuous and falling directly for Hamas Propaganda. If my reports from the IDF and wherever I came across that other analysis are not PERFECT, they are still better than the incomplete picture that Hamas is providing. So two quick questions: Are you demanding PERFECTION? And if so, WHY are you demanding perfection? I'm just interested in what/ how you are thinking... I'm not trying to be inflammatory... Just wondering what standards/ judgements you are applying here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 54 minutes ago, oblong said: Tliab has a seat for life in this district if she wants it. Unless they change the lines. She's pretty much got a solid square, 8 mile except for a bit that jets up into Southfield, that covers Dearborn, Dearborn Hts, Westland, Garden City, stretches west to canton and stops just north of I 94 to the South. The only area that could dent her would be "Lily White Livonia" which is still a thing. The Arab/Muslim community is no longer just Dearborn. They've moved along the Ford/Warren Ave corridor going west. So many churches have closed and property bought to open up another Mosque. There were census estimates that had it as more black than Arab. I'm guessing the low turnout in Detroit is going to keep her seat safe. I would think you would need someone to appeal to the black population in Detroit and Southfield and the white parts of Livonia. I wonder if Duggan could do it? I would take even Duggan over her. Just think, she lost the special election to Brenda Lawrence and barely beat here in the general because Coleman Young got involved. I really wish we could gerrymander Tlaib out of existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: You scrutinize Israel's numbers more than the terrorists numbers. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 49 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Yeah the IDF reports keep getting posted and are easy to find. I believe the 3K was a separate report/ analysis and now I don't remember where it originated. IDF, Intelligence analytics or otherwise. The 11K is definitely IDF. The balance may have been from somewhere else, sorry to conflate the two. The IDF has a blind spot, but not what you are stating. Their blind spot is in verification. If their number is 11,000, there is no way to verify that. However, in no possible way is the number zero. I accept the Health Ministry total deaths number. I cannot accept that it is zero fighters' deaths. And I KNOW that Hamas is using child soldiers in their midst. Their deaths also are not ZERO. That means a proportion of the "children's deaths" were of those placed in harms way by Hamas. I apologize that I cannot get you an EXACT number of non-combatant deaths (associated with Hamas activities) in an easy to find daily report. But if the 11,000 or 14K or anywhere + or - around those numbers is not an EXACT number of deaths of fighters and non-combatants associated with Hamas activities... Why do you care that it is not exact? There are often numbers given as estimates. These are estimates. They will not be able to be verified to an exact amount: ever. Anyone interpreting the Hamas Health Ministry's death totals as being 100% civilians, like Tater keeps trying to do, is being disingenuous and falling directly for Hamas Propaganda. If my reports from the IDF and wherever I came across that other analysis are not PERFECT, they are still better than the incomplete picture that Hamas is providing. So two quick questions: Are you demanding PERFECTION? And if so, WHY are you demanding perfection? I'm just interested in what/ how you are thinking... I'm not trying to be inflammatory... Just wondering what standards/ judgements you are applying here... I’m asking where the 14,000 you provided is, the one you said gets posted and is easy to find, and that you still haven’t provided the link to where I can easily find it. That’s all. Nothing more than that. If you would please provide that easy link to the IDF numbers, that would be swell. Then we can be on the same page for purposes of the discussion. FWIW, since the Gaza health people do not break out their numbers between civilians and operatives, and IDF is not even including civilians in their numbers at all, suggesting there are additional deaths to the numbers we’ve seen today, I would bet that the total number of deaths on IDF’s radar is pretty close to the number the Gaza health people are reporting. Edited February 15 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, oblong said: Tliab has a seat for life in this district if she wants it. Unless they change the lines. She's pretty much got a solid square, 8 mile except for a bit that jets up into Southfield, that covers Dearborn, Dearborn Hts, Westland, Garden City, stretches west to canton and stops just north of I 94 to the South. The only area that could dent her would be "Lily White Livonia" which is still a thing. The Arab/Muslim community is no longer just Dearborn. They've moved along the Ford/Warren Ave corridor going west. So many churches have closed and property bought to open up another Mosque. We’re probably both right: Tlaib has the seat sewn up as long as the district lines hold and she wants to run; and Democrats like Frankel are scheming ways to try to make her lose the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) OK, out of curiosity at this point, does this link have anything to do with the “14,000” deaths in Gaza that is being discussed? I’m rolling the dice here. It is a dated article. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html Edited February 15 by 1776 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: You scrutinize Israel's numbers more than the terrorists numbers. Why should anyone believe the numbers from Jewish Trump's government? You wouldn't believe it if Donald Trump gave you numbers, why would you believe Jewish Trump? What gives Jewish Trump and his cabinet anymore credibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Why should anyone believe the numbers from Jewish Trump's government? You wouldn't believe it if Donald Trump gave you numbers, why would you believe Jewish Trump? What gives Jewish Trump and his cabinet anymore credibility? I don't believe but I tend to believe them more than the terrorists number that you are sharing memes from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.