The Gaza War

[Mr.TaterSalad]

[Motown Bombers]

 

[Motown Bombers]

 

[ewsieg]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:46 PM, 1984Echoes said:

You are making one mistake here. I agree with the top part.

But the IDF is a military organization. It is NOT their job to report on Gazan civilian deaths. Their ONLY objective is to complete their MILITARY objectives. They report military deaths/ casualties. Their own and the "enemies". That's it. 

That is part of the problem here.  The objective we hear is to completely rid out Hamas.  History should point out how unrealistic that is.  I mean 20 years of war and maybe Hamas will be gone and there will be a new name to deal with so I guess you got that.

The bigger issue with the objective is who defines Hamas.  Many folks in Netanyahu's part have publicly said Palestinians voted in Hamas, hence they are all Hamas.  If you don't really care about civilian casualties because you feel they are kind of just like Hamas, then report their deaths as well.  You can't have it both ways.

[oblong]

 

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, ewsieg said:

That is part of the problem here.  The objective we hear is to completely rid out Hamas.  History should point out how unrealistic that is.  I mean 20 years of war and maybe Hamas will be gone and there will be a new name to deal with so I guess you got that.

The bigger issue with the objective is who defines Hamas.  Many folks in Netanyahu's part have publicly said Palestinians voted in Hamas, hence they are all Hamas.  If you don't really care about civilian casualties because you feel they are kind of just like Hamas, then report their deaths as well.  You can't have it both ways.

Who are you talking to?

The IDF? They're the ones reporting military deaths... and since they are a MILITARY organization that's all they are EXPECTED to do.

Did you have a bone to pick with their methodology?

Here's an idea:

Call them up and tell them to change their methods. That should work wonders.

As for me... why are you typing and telling ME to change the IDF's numbers? Because I'm not going to do it. I have a military background and I know EXACTLY what, and why, the IDF is reporting.

If you don't understand this, and clearly you don't... then I can't help you.

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, oblong said:

 

People in civilized societies have trouble not projecting their own civility onto people who go out of their way to make it pretty clear in both word and deed that they don't share it. 

I think there may be reasonable debate about how to destroy Hamas' hold in Gaza, but not that Israel has no choice but try to accomplish that somehow. I don't see many of Israel's international critics coming up with practical alternatives for Israel to pursue that are likely to accomplish the task by means other than those Israel is employing, i.e. military force.

Edited February 19 by gehringer_2

[ewsieg]

3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Who are you talking to?

The IDF? They're the ones reporting military deaths... and since they are a MILITARY organization that's all they are EXPECTED to do.

Did you have a bone to pick with their methodology?

Here's an idea:

Call them up and tell them to change their methods. That should work wonders.

As for me... why are you typing and telling ME to change the IDF's numbers? Because I'm not going to do it. I have a military background and I know EXACTLY what, and why, the IDF is reporting.

If you don't understand this, and clearly you don't... then I can't help you.

I didn't ask you to do anything.  I am not arguing about the numbers at all.  

My point that I choose your post as a catalyst was because you claim that as a military organization they are only expected to report military deaths.  I'm fine with that.  But wanted to point out there are high level members of Netanyahu's government that claims there are no civilians, it's only Hamas fighters and Hamas supporters.   I see no reason why Netanyahu can't give the world an answer on if that means he's planning on ridding all Palestinians/Hamas from Gaza.  If that answer is yes, then I do have an issue with the numbers, because he should be including the 'Hamas supporters' aka civilians, in those numbers.  If so, he should also be informed the US has stopped all aid to Israel.

[1984Echoes]

45 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

...  But wanted to point out there are high level members of Netanyahu's government that claims there are no civilians, it's only Hamas fighters and Hamas supporters.   I see no reason why Netanyahu can't give the world an answer on if that means he's planning on ridding all Palestinians/Hamas from Gaza. ...

Ah, gotcha.

If you're looking for nefarious intent:

1) You won't get that statement from Bibi. He still has to deal with the international community, even if he is trying to wall off his country from the outside (criticism, interference, or anything...) as much as he can. He's going to allow the IDF to complete its mission. They are going to take Rafah, and eliminate, as much as possible, the last Hamas battalions still fighting.

Beyond that... the only indication he has given is that they will not just leave Gaza (not as colonizers, but rather, a security contingent that MUST remain there (their words, not mine) to guarantee Israeli safety from further terrorist attacks from Gaza). I don't know what that means exactly. I guess we'll find out shortly. And, indications that they will not allow Hamas back into Gaza, at least as a military force. That they will control the flow of all incoming goods (it is believed that all the weapons Hamas accumulated came in through the Egyptian border crossing).

That's as much as I know.

To your point: several hard right Israeli politicians have asked "why don't they just leave?", "Can we just take back Gaza and make them (Palestinians) go live somewhere else...?"

Israel and Bibi took heavy flak for those statements. Again... Bibi is NOT going to say that out loud even if that is what he is thinking.

So you won't get what you want because: (A) The IDF will remain military only, and will report military deaths only. (B) Israel as a state can NOT admit to having any desire to remove Palestinians from Gaza... that would be an official act of genocide (Think: Turkey and the Armenians...). And (C) Even if Netanyahu were THINKING that... he can't say that out loud. = War crime.

So you won't get the IDF announcing total Gazan deaths. At all. Military only.

But what is Israel TRULY thinking...?

I can't answer that at the moment.

They will reveal their hand pretty shortly however. The endgame to the IDF's military objectives is near at hand.

 

45 minutes ago, ewsieg said:

...  If that answer is yes, then I do have an issue with the numbers, because he should be including the 'Hamas supporters' aka civilians, in those numbers.  If so, he should also be informed the US has stopped all aid to Israel.

Again, the IDF will not do that.

As for the stoppage of aid to Israel:

I believe in the current political atmosphere that has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with the complete and total disorder of the House Republicans.

Both sides of the aisle, in both the House and the Senate, are heavily committed to supporting Israel (the House just passed an Israel-ONLY package a month ago because: "screw Ukraine, screw the border... MUST help Israel...").

The only thing that is going to happen with Israeli aid is that a contingent of Dems (not certain if it's 100% House or if some Dem Senators also...) who want some strings attached to Israeli aid: basically, that they make attempts to negotiate a ceasefire and do a better job of protecting civilians. I think that is as much as anyone can hope for: because there WILL be aid to Israel.

[1984Echoes]

PS: I didn't mean that 100% of House Dems want strings attached to Israeli aid...

I meant that I don't know of any Senators asking for such. I know Dem members of the House are. But I don't know if that's 10% of House Dems, or 20% or 50% or 80%....?

I just know there's some Dem noise about putting strings on the aid.

But they just passed a bipartisan effort in the Senate that had: 0 restrictions on Israeli aid. So it must not have been important to Dem Senators.

It is important to House Dems... at least some of them have raised a stink about there being no strings...

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

the only indication he has given is that they will not just leave Gaza (not as colonizers, but rather, a security contingent that MUST remain there (their words, not mine) to guarantee Israeli safety from further terrorist attacks from Gaza). I don't know what that means exactly. I guess we'll find out shortly. And, indications that they will not allow Hamas back into Gaza, at least as a military force. That they will control the flow of all incoming goods (it is believed that all the weapons Hamas accumulated came in through the Egyptian border crossing).

this is the trick isn't it. Terrorism will not take permanent root or grow in a population that doesn't support it. Too many eyes and ears to hide arms, training or tunnels etc. So the problem will be what the problem always has been, that enough of the the Gaza population, despite Hamas's barbarity and despite the ruin they have brought, will in the future still shelter Hamas to the point that any occupation that tries to be relatively benevolent will find itself facing continued asymmetric warfare. To be clear, I'm not suggesting it, but  the sad reality is that the only way to crush a terrorist movement in a population that supports it is ruthless (i.e. tyrannical) suppression. Though a lot closer than they used to be, I don't think (though I may well be wrong!) Israel is ready to operate that way long term, and they would get tremendous pressure from the US and Europe if they tried. 

Not many good answers, which is I suppose why it's been 75 yrs since partition and the area is still a mess.

Edited February 19 by gehringer_2

[1984Echoes]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

.... To be clear, I'm not suggesting it, but the sad reality is that the only way to crush a terrorist movement in a population that supports it is ruthless (i.e. tyrannical) suppression...

I think there's a different method:

Re-education.

And not the bad Chinese version.

But... IIRC, Hamas prints out comic books in Gaza for kids that basically says "killing Israelis is a wonderful thing and Allah will love you for it". Textbooks in Math and other subjects center around shooting or throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers. Hamas has tried to indoctrinate 100% of Gazans into the "Exterminate Israel" doctrine that they espouse.

So the aftermath has already been discussed as co-managed by non-Palestinian Muslim states. By Egypt & Jordan just as examples. Sort of as guarantors to Israel that terrorism is not again indoctrinated to Gazans.

So... the "new" education? To me it's very simple: Gaza has its own freedom, government, land, peoples... and on the other side of that fence over there, is someone else. But FORGET who's on the other side of the fence. Worry only about your own land. Don't build bombs and missiles and deep underground bunkers & tunnels... Build farms. And Arboretums. And Computer science centers. And other things that build up your OWN lives (what they should have been doing the past 20+ years; not 50% of those materials stolen by Hamas to build a war machine that is a failure against the Israeli behemoth anyways).

If you don't "mess" with those guys on the other side of the fence, they won't mess with YOU (Gazans). If you throw rocks over the fence to try to hurt someone "over there", guess what happens? It's not pleasant if they'll remember the winter of 2023-24. Just FORGET who's on the other side of the fence. You have land, and beaches, and farms, and your OWN government... right here in Gaza.

That's my suggestion anyways...

[oblong]

But they are taught  and believe that what they would have is not good enough. That what the guy next door (Israel) has is theirs by birthright and heritage and it was stolen.  So the Gazans will never stop.  You can’t negotiate with a people who think you simply shouldn’t exist. To far too many people the only acceptable resolution will be wiping Israel off the map. It will always be there. There is nothing you could give the Palestinians short of no israel that will satisfy them. 
 

[chasfh]

On 2/15/2024 at 3:46 PM, 1984Echoes said:

You are making one mistake here. I agree with the top part.

But the IDF is a military organization. It is NOT their job to report on Gazan civilian deaths. Their ONLY objective is to complete their MILITARY objectives. They report military deaths/ casualties. Their own and the "enemies". That's it. 

Which is why their number is completely full of ****, and why the media aren’t paying attention to it. Ignoring the civilian deaths in their reporting is shameful on their part, and embracing the idea they should not be reported is inexplicable on yours.

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

But they are taught  and believe that what they would have is not good enough. That what the guy next door (Israel) has is theirs by birthright and heritage and it was stolen.  So the Gazans will never stop.  You can’t negotiate with a people who think you simply shouldn’t exist. To far too many people the only acceptable resolution will be wiping Israel off the map. It will always be there. There is nothing you could give the Palestinians short of no israel that will satisfy them. 
 

And there is a historical cultural confluence that also fuels the issue. It's not just a group of people who have been dispossessed by war keeping things alive, that has happened in a lot of places without them turning into the ME; it's also a basic tenet of fundamentalist Islam that territory gained to Muslim conversion/conquest may never be lost. So Israel's existence is also anathema to any radical Islamist. It's a match of interests that compounds it all. And conversely and perversely, the existence of Israel is an argument Islamic radicals make that the people need to be more devout (read as "support us"), because if they were, Allah would never have allowed them to fall from power in their previously won lands.

[oblong]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

And there is a historical cultural confluence that also fuels the issue. It's not just a group of people who have been dispossessed by war keeping things alive, that has happened in a lot of places without them turning into the ME; it's also a basic tenet of fundamentalist Islam that territory gained to Muslim conversion/conquest may never be lost. So Israel's existence is also anathema to any radical Islamist. It's a match of interests that compounds it all. And conversely and perversely, the existence of Israel is an argument Islamic radicals make that the people need to be more devout (read as "support us"), because if they were, Allah would never have allowed them to fall from power in their previously won lands.

I read that sentiment in a lot of local comments on social media. Yes it’s just internet chatter but like MAGA… they believe it. And that’s just what they are willing to say publicly.  Yes the WSJ op Ed a few weeks ago on Dearborn crossed the line but if that author did his research online reading comment sections of a few local and prominent pages he would be forgiven for going towards that conclusion.   Muslims shaming other Muslims for being “harem” because not every facet of their life is devoted to Islam and Alllah. It’s like me reading commentary from my old fundamentalist baptist (Bob Jones University) crowd go on about other Christians being “worldly”. 

[1984Echoes]

Crazily enough, the UN confirms that Israel has the LOWEST number of civilian casualties in an urban warfare environment per normal urban warfare expectations:

(IE: UN expectation in urban warfare is 9-1 ration loss of civilians to military. Israel's ratio is approximately 2-1 civilians killed to military... in Gaza's urban settings...):

https://www.yahoo.com/news/weve-got-stop-believing-hamas-145119252.html

Opinion

We’ve got to stop believing Hamas’ lies about civilian deaths in Gaza

Isaac Schorr

Mon, February 19, 2024

 

"... as a military historian – less than 2:1 is an astonishingly low ratio for modern urban warfare where the terrorists routinely use civilians as human shields. It is a testament to the professionalism, ethics and values of the Israel Defense Forces.” 

The UN, indeed, despite its constant criticism of Israel, has assessed that a more normal ratio in urban combat would be 9:1. 

[1984Echoes]

4 hours ago, chasfh said:

Which is why their number is completely full of ****, and why the media aren’t paying attention to it. Ignoring the civilian deaths in their reporting is shameful on their part, and embracing the idea they should not be reported is inexplicable on yours.

You're still confused.

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

... it's also a basic tenet of fundamentalist Islam that territory gained to Muslim conversion/conquest may never be lost. So ...

So we've lost Dearborn...

Forever?

[1984Echoes]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

Which is why their number is completely full of ****, and why the media aren’t paying attention to it. Ignoring the civilian deaths in their reporting is shameful on their part, and embracing the idea they should not be reported is inexplicable on yours.

One further point... and I'll ask this in question form...

For all of your OUTRAGE that the IDF military organization, that reports to the Israeli GOVERNMENT, and not to YOU... and reports military deaths only to the Israeli government as is their JOB, and not civilian... which you apparently believe is some massive moral crime....

 

Did Hamas attack only military targets when it went into Israel and butchered babies? Or would those be classified as civilian murders by Hamas?

 

[1984Echoes]

5 hours ago, chasfh said:

Which is why their number is completely full of ****, and why the media aren’t paying attention to it. Ignoring the civilian deaths in their reporting is shameful on their part, and embracing the idea they should not be reported is inexplicable on yours.

Yeesh...

One more comment:

If I have this correct.. you are UPSET that the IDF reports military deaths but not civilian deaths, but you are NOT upset, AT ALL, because you've made no comment to the following point: That Hamas reports ALL Gazan deaths as civilian deaths, but does not report their military deaths?

Do I have that right?

So... it doesn't bother you that HAMAS killed hundreds of those Gazan deaths? Anyone remember the bombing of the Al-Shifa Hospital... that was actually an errant Hamas missile or two? Hundreds of deaths, IIRC. It doesn't bother you that hundreds (wag) of Gazan civilians, and also most likely some Israeli hostages, were killed because Hamas USES them as human shields? It doesn't bother you that roughly (wag) 11,000 of those 28,500 Gazan deaths are terrorists... which Hamas refuses to acknowledge, but you're OUTRAGED that a military organization tasked with military objectives is reporting military deaths?

And there is STILL the point that Hamas ALSO does not differentiate between civilian or military personnel when they commit their acts of murder.

My comment is... you need to look in the mirror before you start speaking about shameful.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said:

So we've lost Dearborn...

Forever?

Well to be honest, I'm not sure we ever had it. Orville Hubbard had already confiscated it first.

[CMRivdogs]

Seems like a smart move at first glance. Go ahead and vote uncommitted in the primary, but consider your real choices in November.

 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, CMRivdogs said:

Seems like a smart move at first glance. Go ahead and vote uncommitted in the primary, but consider your real choices in November.

 

Mitch Landrieu needs to move to a blue state so he can get elected to something. Too much talent going to waste.

[chasfh]

22 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Crazily enough, the UN confirms that Israel has the LOWEST number of civilian casualties in an urban warfare environment per normal urban warfare expectations:

(IE: UN expectation in urban warfare is 9-1 ration loss of civilians to military. Israel's ratio is approximately 2-1 civilians killed to military... in Gaza's urban settings...):

https://www.yahoo.com/news/weve-got-stop-believing-hamas-145119252.html

Opinion

We’ve got to stop believing Hamas’ lies about civilian deaths in Gaza

Isaac Schorr

Mon, February 19, 2024

 

"... as a military historian – less than 2:1 is an astonishingly low ratio for modern urban warfare where the terrorists routinely use civilians as human shields. It is a testament to the professionalism, ethics and values of the Israel Defense Forces.” 

The UN, indeed, despite its constant criticism of Israel, has assessed that a more normal ratio in urban combat would be 9:1. 

Who is Isaac Schorr—and who is Lord Andrew Roberts, for that matter—and why should I believe their off-the-cuff, citation-free assessments couched in a The Telegraph op-ed any more than I should believe the Gaza health ministry? They just look to me like another party with interest here.