chasfh Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 21 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Yeesh... One more comment: If I have this correct.. you are UPSET that the IDF reports military deaths but not civilian deaths, but you are NOT upset, AT ALL, because you've made no comment to the following point: That Hamas reports ALL Gazan deaths as civilian deaths, but does not report their military deaths? Do I have that right? So... it doesn't bother you that HAMAS killed hundreds of those Gazan deaths? Anyone remember the bombing of the Al-Shifa Hospital... that was actually an errant Hamas missile or two? Hundreds of deaths, IIRC. It doesn't bother you that hundreds (wag) of Gazan civilians, and also most likely some Israeli hostages, were killed because Hamas USES them as human shields? It doesn't bother you that roughly (wag) 11,000 of those 28,500 Gazan deaths are terrorists... which Hamas refuses to acknowledge, but you're OUTRAGED that a military organization tasked with military objectives is reporting military deaths? And there is STILL the point that Hamas ALSO does not differentiate between civilian or military personnel when they commit their acts of murder. I am not OUTRAGED or UPSET at all. I don't have any personal feelings tied up in any of this at all. I'm just saying I think it's shameful that IDF is ignoring civilian deaths in its count, and that's worse that the Gaza ministry combining total deaths into one number, since the Gaza ministry is at least making an apparently good faith effort to count all the deaths which, to me, is the thing that really matters when it comes to making the tally. 21 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: My comment is... you need to look in the mirror before you start speaking about shameful Good to see you're not making this personal! 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 20 hours ago, CMRivdogs said: Seems like a smart move at first glance. Go ahead and vote uncommitted in the primary, but consider your real choices in November. I would be rather surprised to see many, if any, of the Dearborn voters contemplated here voting for Trump in November. And even if they stay home, I'm having trouble envisioning how they can swing the state to Trump from a 155,000-vote margin for Biden in 2020. I am going off the assumption that Trump will not be winning any Biden 2020 voters in numbers enough to win the election, and flip side, I do believe Biden will securing more Trump votes than the other way around by a factor on multiples, and lead other marginal Trump 2020 voters to just stay home. Because when the rubber hits the road in October and people in Michigan finally start paying attention, to the election, I believe they will pull the lever for the Democrats in big numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, chasfh said: I would be rather surprised to see many, if any, of the Dearborn voters contemplated here voting for Trump in November. And even if they stay home, I'm having trouble envisioning how they can swing the state to Trump from a 155,000-vote margin for Biden in 2020. I am going off the assumption that Trump will not be winning any Biden 2020 voters in numbers enough to win the election, and flip side, I do believe Biden will securing more Trump votes than the other way around by a factor on multiples, and lead other marginal Trump 2020 voters to just stay home. Because when the rubber hits the road in October and people in Michigan finally start paying attention, to the election, I believe they will pull the lever for the Democrats in big numbers. There is a merging point among Muslims with the GOP as it stands to moral issues. The immigration thing (Muslim ban) is not that big of a player because there is a tribal feeling of "I'm here, it's all good". Tribalism is a thing in that community, Lebanese vs Yemeni, etc. We had a big row here last year in our schools where some local Trumpies were jumping in on the book banning issue and the Muslims were joining them. One person at a board meeting actually said "They can be gay when they are 18". It is not an election year here for the board until next year so we'll see how that plays out. But I'm not ruling out them voting for Trump. This is based on what I read locally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 Whitmer won big even with declining support in Dearborn. Dearborn and Hamtramck were the only places where Tudor's transphobia message worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 9 minutes ago, oblong said: There is a merging point among Muslims with the GOP as it stands to moral issues. The immigration thing (Muslim ban) is not that big of a player because there is a tribal feeling of "I'm here, it's all good". Tribalism is a thing in that community, Lebanese vs Yemeni, etc. We had a big row here last year in our schools where some local Trumpies were jumping in on the book banning issue and the Muslims were joining them. One person at a board meeting actually said "They can be gay when they are 18". It is not an election year here for the board until next year so we'll see how that plays out. But I'm not ruling out them voting for Trump. This is based on what I read locally. I won't pretend to know better than anyone else, especially you, one way or the other, but I'm just having trouble squaring the circle between Trump's history of anti-Muslim rhetoric and action, and the idea that Muslims will in great numbers vote for him. It would be tantamount to voting for their own expulsion from the United States, regardless that they are citizens. (Don't think a Trump administration would find some way to deport Muslim citizens that would hold muster with his handpicked Supreme Court? Hold my beer ...) But again, I can't say for sure that they could never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: I won't pretend to know better than anyone else, especially you, one way or the other, but I'm just having trouble squaring the circle between Trump's history of anti-Muslim rhetoric and action, and the idea that Muslims will in great numbers vote for him. It would be tantamount to voting for their own expulsion from the United States, regardless that they are citizens. (Don't think a Trump administration would find some way to deport Muslim citizens that would hold muster with his handpicked Supreme Court? Hold my beer ...) But again, I can't say for sure that they could never. A lot of them who voted for Whitmer in 2018 and Biden in 2020 voted for Tudor in 2022. Dearborn was the one area where Whitmer struggled. She still won Deaborn overall but it was a big swing to the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 11 minutes ago, chasfh said: I won't pretend to know better than anyone else, especially you, one way or the other, but I'm just having trouble squaring the circle between Trump's history of anti-Muslim rhetoric and action, and the idea that Muslims will in great numbers vote for him. It would be tantamount to voting for their own expulsion from the United States, regardless that they are citizens. (Don't think a Trump administration would find some way to deport Muslim citizens that would hold muster with his handpicked Supreme Court? Hold my beer ...) But again, I can't say for sure that they could never. We will get an indication of this after the primary votes are tallied. Will those Uncommitted votes remain non votes in November or even be converted to Trump? In 2020 the city totals were 30K to 13K in favor of Biden. In 2022 it was 19K to 10K in favor of Whitmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I also wonder if this is more of a Dearborn problem? Sterling Heights has a sizeable Arab population and Whitmer did well there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I also wonder if this is more of a Dearborn problem? Sterling Heights has a sizeable Arab population and Whitmer did well there. Are the folks in Sterling Heights mostly Chaldean? To quote some around me.... "they don't count as Arab". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 4 minutes ago, oblong said: Are the folks in Sterling Heights mostly Chaldean? To quote some around me.... "they don't count as Arab". I believe so. I know a lot started moving into Sterling Heights during the Iraq war. A lot of them are from Iraq. They were getting jobs in the Chrysler plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I live in north Warren and there are multiple Muslim Arab families on my street. I don't know what their feelings are towards the war but I haven't seen any Palestinian flags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I remember in 1990, just as the first Gulf War was getting started, I went into Vegas Party Shoppe, the one that was in the old triangle-shaped architect's office, on the corner of Stanley and Van Dyke. The guy who owned it was Chaldean—natch—and basically within one day of the Kuwait invasion, he put this cartoon up right by the cash register. He was no dummy. He knew who his customers were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 That shop closed recently and they painted it and spruced it up. Looks like it's for sale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 20 Author Share Posted February 20 (edited) 3 hours ago, oblong said: Are the folks in Sterling Heights mostly Chaldean? To quote some around me.... "they don't count as Arab". a few generations ago Lebanese, Syrian and Iraqi Christians made up a good chuck of ME emigres to the US. Their politics don't necessarily align with Muslin emigres. I don't imagine there are many Christian emigres coming from the ME today because there aren't many left, most having left in those previous waves. Edited February 20 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 3 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: a few generations ago Lebanese, Syrian and Iraqi Christians made up a good chuck of ME emigres to the US. Their politics don't necessarily align with Muslin emigres. I don't imagine there are many Christian emigres coming from the ME today because there aren't many left, most having left in those previous waves. The Lebanese in particular have carved a good chunk of Wayne county political power thru the Warren Evans machine over the last 40 years. Which is a conundrum for my mayor and his No Biden in the primary position. Hammoud is part of that party machine as he served multiple terms in the state house and is entrenched in the party. If his stance carries over to the election in November then he needs to sit out future photo ops did programs based on funding from Democratic Party achievements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Now the state rep over there, Dylan something or other, is spouting off about voting non committed. God damn we're going to let Trump win over a foreign war the US didn't start, has no troops on the ground, committed no airstrikes, and led by a country the US does not control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 The IDF says approximately 13,000 dead Hamas terrorists in Israel's War against Hamas Terrorism: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-denies-reports-hamas-leader-133316209.html Israel denies reports Hamas leader and brother have escaped to Egypt Jotam Confino Tue, February 20, 2024 "The IDF estimates that 18 of Hamas’s 24 battalions in Gaza have been destroyed, while 12,000 of the terror group’s members have been killed in Gaza and another 1,000 inside Israel in the first days after Oct 7." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I think there is probably room to take in both numbers, meaning the IDF number for combatants killed, and the health ministry’s number for total killed. I’m not really seeing how they must by definition be mutually exclusive and therefore, point of gun, choose one or the other. They may be both right, or at close to right, although there may be some definitional differences. I think most people agree that there have been a number of civilians, probably running into six figures, who have nothing to do with the politics of any of this who have been killed, wounded, missing, or made homeless from the ruthless and indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza. It’s been just ****ing horrific for people there who just want nothing more than to live ordinary, everyday lives. If I were a man given to praying for people, they’d be up near the top of my list. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I just think it's telling that leftists have so much concern over this foreign conflict than any other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) A lot of people on the left had/have great concern over what's still happening in Yemen. As well, when George WMD. Bush wasn't stepping up to stop genocide in Darfur in Sudan it was many on the left who were most critical. When DubyaMD beat the war drum to go to Iraq it was the left who was protesting that foreign conflict while the center of the party, like Hillary Clinton, were being craven and acquiescing to the warmongers in DubyaMDs administration. When the left and libertarians were out in the streets protesting the Iraq War others were talking about weapons of mass destruction, yellow cake uranium from Niger, mushroom clouds over NYC, Sadaams ties to Al-Qaeda, etc. Many in the center were spinning the same lies and promoting the same fabricated intelligence reports that DubyaMD was pushing. Edited February 21 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Another thing the left has in common with MAGA, they're still obsessed with Hillary. They wanted the US to pull out of Afghanistan and Biden did it and has paid dearly. His approval rating has never required. No president is ever going to end a war now. The tankie left wants to had Ukraine over to Russia to pacify them. Wonder why we don't just tell Palestine to concede Gaza to Israel for the sake of peace since they are going to get crushed by Israel like Ukraine was supposed to be crushed by Russia? The tankie left was also quiet about Syria and even supported Asad. Remember when Tulsi used to be a Bernie sis and Asad apologist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 1 hour ago, chasfh said: I think there is probably room to take in both numbers, meaning the IDF number for combatants killed, and the health ministry’s number for total killed. I’m not really seeing how they must by definition be mutually exclusive and therefore, point of gun, choose one or the other. They may be both right, or at close to right, although there may be some definitional differences. I think most people agree that there have been a number of civilians, probably running into six figures, who have nothing to do with the politics of any of this who have been killed, wounded, missing, or made homeless from the ruthless and indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza. It’s been just ****ing horrific for people there who just want nothing more than to live ordinary, everyday lives. If I were a man given to praying for people, they’d be up near the top of my list. Where in the main stream media that you rely on have you seen facts of said indiscriminate bombings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Another thing the left has in common with MAGA, they're still obsessed with Hillary. They wanted the US to pull out of Afghanistan and Biden did it and has paid dearly. His approval rating has never required. No president is ever going to end a war now. The tankie left wants to had Ukraine over to Russia to pacify them. Wonder why we don't just tell Palestine to concede Gaza to Israel for the sake of peace since they are going to get crushed by Israel like Ukraine was supposed to be crushed by Russia? The tankie left was also quiet about Syria and even supported Asad. Remember when Tulsi used to be a Bernie sis and Asad apologist? 95% of the far left have never served or even been near a war zone. Fun fact, you don't get to call timeout and do a body count. I wonder why none of the surrounding Muslim countries are allowing any refugees in? Everyone is outraged but just sit on their hands... I was in Chicago this weekend and saw a protest by a group of LGBT folks holding signs calling Isreal murderers and killers. Funny thing is if they were to live in Gaza and dispaly their beliefs they would be stoned and killed no questions asked. Edited February 21 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 11 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: 95% of the far left have never served or even been near a war zone. Fun fact, you don't get to call timeout and do a body count. I wonder why none of the surrounding Muslim countries are allowing any refugees in? Everyone is outraged but just sit on their hands... I was in Chicago this weekend and saw a protest by a group of LGBT folks holding signs calling Isreal murderers and killers. Funny thing is if they were to live in Gaza and dispaly their beliefs they would be stoned and killed no questions asked. The only country those LGBT folks can live in in the Middle East without being sentenced to death is Israel. Israel is a multi-cultural country with socialized health care. I figured the progressives would wet themselves over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 6 hours ago, chasfh said: I think there is probably room to take in both numbers, meaning the IDF number for combatants killed, and the health ministry’s number for total killed.... I've been arguing that for at least the past several pages. I think you didn't catch that. They are TWO different numbers. I look to the Health Ministry for Total Casualties. And the IDF for Hamas fighter deaths (estimated only). Because they are two different pieces of information. Both valid... with limitations. Taken together, they present a fuller, somewhat more accurate picture. It's all I've been arguing for the last few pages. 6 hours ago, chasfh said: I’m not really seeing how they must by definition be mutually exclusive and therefore, point of gun, choose one or the other. I've NEVER said choose one or the other. They are mutually exclusive, but (I think I am saying this wrong. Each number "excludes" a piece of information... but the Hamas fighter killed by the IDF (estimated) is a PART of the Health Ministry's total Gazan deaths reported. So not mutually exclusive that way). In combination, (meaning the 13K as a sub-component of the Health Ministry's 29K), they are actually more accurate then as stand-alone numbers. Neither paints a complete picture by themselves, hence, the need to combine the two pieces of information. And in fact, my argument the past few pages was ALWAYS to COMBINE the two numbers for a fuller picture. I've never deviated from that. Edited February 21 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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