1984Echoes Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: ... Israeli settlers have been marching in and encroaching upon their Palestinian neighbors for decades and ... NOT in Gaza. ZERO Percent in Gaza. You're conflating issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: You missed the point completely but I know you did so on purpose. By giving unconditioned military aid to the Netanyahu government you are supporting Netanyahu unconditionally. You are ... So what you are saying is we should overthrow the Israeli government and install our own puppet? Or are you saying **** the Israeli people because you don't like Bibi? Which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: ... Furthermore, even with a corrupt dictator-lite in power like Bibi, we have US politicians running around (in Israel no less) talking about how they are our special ally and how we need to ... So you want to end ALL support for Israel, after we have supported them for 77 years (since 1947), and they have at times been our ONLY ally in the Middle East... Because...? Is that your position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 9 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So what you are saying is we should overthrow the Israeli government and install our own puppet? Or are you saying **** the Israeli people because you don't like Bibi? Which is it? It's weird since these tankies are always against imperialism and regime change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: yes the Palestinians have been screwed, but how you chose to fight back matters. Gandhi got the Brits out of India without acting like Hamas, Mandela broke the Apartheid government without acting like Hamas, MLK fought hard to keep his movement non-violent, rejecting the Panther's militant direction. There is a level at which it is unavoidable that populations have to be responsible for the outcomes in their midst. It is never fair on the individual level, but that is how the world works. I certainly wish Hamas would be taking the path of some of those you noted. I also wish Netanyahu was taking the path of those same people as well. There are only several possibilities 1) You have peace between both, but that would mean you can't have Hamas or Netanyahu 2) You have peace because there are no Palestinians left. 3) You don't have peace. I'm not trying to compare Hamas to Netanyahu, but screw Netanyahu too. 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: Biden has said there will be conditions on military. He has been pretty clear about. Just stop with this unconditional aid. Biden has never said it. What conditions? Netanyahu has been publicly flipping Biden off for months and saying he doesn't care what we say. I get that our native language is English, but even Google translate can be used to easily see what Netanyahu is saying within his country. I will argue with every Palestinian sympathizer about how the vast majority of the problems have been caused by Palestinians, but at this point going forward, you can't claim you want peace in that region and continue to support Netanyahu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, ewsieg said: I certainly wish Hamas would be taking the path of some of those you noted. I also wish Netanyahu was taking the path of those same people as well. There are only several possibilities 1) You have peace between both, but that would mean you can't have Hamas or Netanyahu 2) You have peace because there are no Palestinians left. 3) You don't have peace. I'm not trying to compare Hamas to Netanyahu, but screw Netanyahu too. What conditions? Netanyahu has been publicly flipping Biden off for months and saying he doesn't care what we say. I get that our native language is English, but even Google translate can be used to easily see what Netanyahu is saying within his country. I will argue with every Palestinian sympathizer about how the vast majority of the problems have been caused by Palestinians, but at this point going forward, you can't claim you want peace in that region and continue to support Netanyahu. " WASHINGTON (AP) — A new directive by President Joe Biden appeared to ease a split among Democrats over his military support for Israel’s war in Gaza, with lawmakers on Friday praising the order authorizing a swift cutoff of military aid to countries that violate international protections of civilians. For Biden, the commitment to conditioning U.S. military aid for Israel and other allies and strategic partners will help him shore up support among center-left Senate Democrats for his proposed $95 billion supplemental assistance package, which is aimed primarily at military aid for Ukraine in its war with Russia and for Israel in its war against Hamas in Gaza. Democratic senators on Friday called Biden’s directive — meant to bring breadth, oversight, deadlines and teeth to efforts to ensure foreign governments don’t use U.S. military aid against civilians — historic. “This is a sea-change in terms of how you approach U.S. military aid and its impact on civilians,” Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren said. She spoke at a Capitol news conference with other Democrats who’d negotiated with the White House for two months on the matter, in an effort led by Maryland Sen. Chris Van Hollen." Biden order attaches human rights conditions to US military aid, easing Democratic rift over Israel | AP News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 So the only condition on that money is a directive pointing out what we could already do. Quite some constraints there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 2 minutes ago, ewsieg said: So the only condition on that money is a directive pointing out what we could already do. Quite some constraints there. I mean, the funding hasn't even been approved for Israel. Most of what the US provides to Israel is air defense systems. Less than 20% of Israel's military is supported by the US. The bombs they are dropping on Gaza are made by Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 But I thought he unconditionally wants war and to murder Palestinians Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 9 hours ago, ewsieg said: I'm not trying to compare Hamas to Netanyahu, but screw Netanyahu too. absolutely. This conflict doesn't rise quite to the level of "damn both your houses" like say, the Iran/Iraq war did, but only because we have to consider that the US strategic and political culture alignment with Israel is more important than, and will eventually outlive Netanyahu. In the short term, anything the US can do to make Netanyahu suffer for doing absolutely nothing but making the situation worse for 25 yrs is too little. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 You can’t murder people w/o retaliation. Stupid Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 20 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: This is likely a sign that the political pressure is working and that watching a mounting death toll has probably weighed on him personally. Good to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: This is likely a sign that the political pressure is working and that watching a mounting death toll has probably weighed on him personally. Good to see it. Isn't a sign more about Hamas and Israel more than Biden? What exactly do you people think Biden does in this war? It's not his ****ing war. He didn't start it. He's not fighting it. You act like he's wanting all of this to happen and finally changed his mind because 10,000 people said something to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 14 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: This is likely a sign that the political pressure is working and that watching a mounting death toll has probably weighed on him personally. Good to see it. No it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I like how these tankies play in traffic and think they affected international policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, oblong said: Isn't a sign more about Hamas and Israel more than Biden? What exactly do you people think Biden does in this war? It's not his ****ing war. He didn't start it. He's not fighting it. You act like he's wanting all of this to happen and finally changed his mind because 10,000 people said something to him. I'm going to parse out my answers and responses below. What do I think Biden does? I think he, his administration, and Congress advocate for and send, unconditioned military aid to Israel for not only the Iron Dome missile defense system, but also for things like F-35 fighter jets, direct weapons and munitions. They send this aid to a to a corrupt, undemocratic, fascistic Israeli government lead by a to a corrupt, undemocratic, fascistic man in Benjamin Netanyahu. I think by sending military aid to Netanyahu's government he is not only supporting Bibi's war effort, but in part, also supporting Bibi's PR campaign to wage this war, make himself look good, and keep himself in power as dictator of Israel. Netanyahu is using this war to try and make himself look like a hero and to deflect from all of his legal problems, alleged criminality, and all of the civil unrest we saw prior to October 7th. The longer this war drags on the less attention paid to Netanyahu's legal issues and alleged criminality it seems. This Council on Foreign Relations report gives a fairly good breakdown of the military aid we send to Netanyahu's corrupt, undemocratic, fascistic Israeli government. Quote How does Israel use the aid? Most of the aid—approximately $3.3 billion a year—is provided as grants under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, funds that Israel must use to purchase U.S. military equipment and services. Israel has also historically been permitted to use a portion of its FMF aid to buy equipment from Israeli defense firms—a benefit not granted to other recipients of U.S. military aid—but this domestic procurement is to be phased out in the next few years. U.S. aid reportedly accounts for some 15 percent of Israel’s defense budget. Israel, like many other countries, also buys U.S. military products outside of the FMF program. Additionally, $500 million a year is slated for Israeli and joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs, in which the two countries collaborate on the research, development, and production of these systems used by Israel, including the Iron Dome, David’s Sling, and Arrow II. Iron Dome was solely developed by Israel, but the United States has been a production partner since 2014. For instance, the U.S. military contractor Raytheon manufactures Tamir interceptor missiles for Israel’s Iron Dome at its facilities in Arizona. Are There Conditions on Military Aid? Israel has agreed to use U.S. weapons only in self-defense. Outside of this, Biden administration officials have said they have not placed further limitations or constraints on how Israel uses U.S. weapons, although they say that Israel should observe international law. I think his administration, and those before it, also potentially violate the so-called Leahy Law in the United States. Vox has a good explanation of the Leahy Law and why the US may be in violation of its own law. The Leahy Law is supposed to be used to ensure countries that receive aid and military aid from the US aren't using that aid to violate the human rights of others nor international law. Thanks to multiple, credible reports, from various agencies we already know that Israel is/was operating as an apartheid state with its treatment of people in Gaza and the West Bank prior to October 7th. Apartheid is a gross abuse of human rights and a violation of international law. It's not his ****ing war. He didn't start it. He's not fighting it. It is certainly true that he didn't start this war and that Hamas did and Israel responded. There have been broader historical factors at play that are far beyond and were well before Joe Biden's presidency and it is not fair at all to act as if he started it. In some small part though, it is a war he has chosen to get involved in it with the direct sale of munitions and supply of unconditioned military aid. So while it is not "his war", his administration and congress decided to involve themselves with direct arms sales and military aid to a corrupt, undemocratic, fascistic Israel government lead by Netanyahu. You act like he's wanting all of this to happen and finally changed his mind because 10,000 people said something to him. I certainly don't think Biden wanted any of this to happen. I would venture to guess most on the left don't either. But wanting it to happen and supporting it while it is happening are two different conversations we need to have. When this war started and through its first few months (November, December, January) the Biden Administration opposed a permanent ceasefire and even fought against it in the United Nations. They also opposed conditioning military aid or restricting it in any way. It seems to me, and maybe I am wrong here, that after months of mounting political pressure he is changing his tune. Political pressure coming from Arab-Americans, Muslim-Americans, the left in his own party, combined with a rising death toll in Gaza and a humanitarian disaster, has made Biden has come around to the idea of both conditioning military aid and having a permanent ceasefire adopted. This is a very good thing. Conditioning military aid and pausing the fighting is something many have wanted for months. Now, you can say that Hamas may well just violate a ceasefire resolution, making it a one-sided affair that only Israel holds itself too. That may end up being the case and **** Hamas for doing so. We will see if a negotiated ceasefire ends up in place next week as is rumored and if Hamas bothers to stick with it. Another point that I want to make is regarding our special relationship with Israel and the unwavering support we give to a country led by a man who is corrupt, undemocratic, fascistic man in Benjamin Netanyahu. There are few other dictatorial and authoritarian regimes and political parties that we would support in the way we support Benjamin Netanyahu and his Likud government. We don't support Hamas and the PLO in this wat in Palestine. We don't support Vladimir Putin this way in Russia. We don't support Aleksandr Lukashenko or Viktor Orban this way in Belarus or Hungary. Yet even when Benjamin Netanyahu uses his own countries judicial system to stage a coup we still have Democratic politicians in this country, like Joe Biden or Haley Stevens, falling all over themselves and trumpeting our special relationship with Israel. There is no other authoritarian, fascistic regime in this world that we would consider a special ally like we do Israel. Like it or not, admit it or not, right now, Israel is being led by a wannabe dictator and a wannabe fascist. Netanyahu is not Golda Meir, Yitzhak Rabin, nor Ariel Sharon. He is a corrupt man, with authoritarian tendencies, who was and still is actively trying to overthrow democracy in Israel to avoid criminal prosecution and keep himself in power for life. To pretend that the Israel of today that we are providing aid to and working with is the same Israel that Bill Clinton worked side-by-side with when Yitzhak Rabin was its Prime Minister or Jimmy Carter worked with when Menachem Begin was leading the nation is foolish. Benjamin Netanyahu is a bad leader and a bad man. The Israel of today is not the Israel we negotiated with and worked with over the past 6-7 decades. It is today a nation slipping more towards Hungary and Belarus than it is a free, fair democracy. What he is doing there sounds a heckuva a lot like what Donald Trump attempted here. I wouldn't want my tax dollars doing to aid Trump in a PR war that he was actively using to prop himself up politically and keep himself in power. I sure don't want them going to prop up Trump's just as corrupt, just as dictatorial counterpart in Israel in Netanyahu. Were Israel led by a decent person like Rabin or Sharon, I'd feel a lot better about supporting them. But they are not, they are led by a man whose trying to make himself Israel last Prime Minister and first dictator. Edited February 27 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just give Gaza to Israel like you tankies want to hand over Ukraine to Russia for peace. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 What you mean by permanent ceasefire is a surrender by Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 14 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Now, you can say that Hamas may well just violate a ceasefire resolution, making it a one-sided affair that only Israel holds itself too. That may end up being the case and **** Hamas for doing so. We will see if a negotiated ceasefire ends up in place next week as is rumored and if Hamas bothers to stick with it. Just to be clear, there was a ceasefire in place on October 7th that Hamas violated. There is never any agency for Hamas from tankies. It's always the Jews for fighting back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: What you mean by permanent ceasefire is a surrender by Israel. So how high does the death toll have to rise before you believe is enough is enough? And if there is no line for you that can be crossed, why not just use a nuclear weapon on Gaza? Nuking Gaza would be much faster if you don't have any regard for the civilian death toll. Edited February 27 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said: So how high does the death toll have to rise before you believe is enough is enough. And if there is no line for you that can be crossed, why not just use a nuclear weapon on Gaza? Nuking Gaza would be much faster if you don't have any regard for the civilian death toll. How about demanding Hamas surrender and release the hostages. You know, the aggressor. The one who started this. Hamas is the one who has no regard for their civilians. I mean, you're basically saying that terrorists can pillage a country and take hostages and hide them amongst citizens and Israel should just say that's ok keep them as concubines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 You also bring up a good point about the nuclear weapons. Israel has shown restraint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: How about demanding Hamas surrender and release the hostages. You know, the aggressor. The one who started this. Hamas is the one who has no regard for their civilians. I mean, you're basically saying that terrorists can pillage a country and take hostages and hide them amongst citizens and Israel should just say that's ok keep them as concubines. Of course I'd like for Hamas to surrender and for hostages to be released. I very well recognize who the aggressor is in this situation. Honest questions for you, all BS and hyperbole aside. Does proportionality of civilian deaths matter to you? Do you believe Israel has a right to do whatever it wants in response to October 7th, without regard to the mounting civilian death toll? Is there no line Israel can also cross? You know it is possible to hold space for believing that both what Hamas did was brutal and wrong, while also believing Israel response is getting out of hand itself and worsening a humanitarian crisis. Edited February 27 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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