Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 500,000 Ukrainians have been killed and no tankie is setting themself on fire in front of a Russian embassy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said: Of course I'd like for Hamas to surrender and for hostages to be released. I very well recognize who the aggressor is in this situation. Honest questions for you, all BS and hyperbole aside. Does proportionality of civilian deaths matter to you? Do you believe Israel has a right to do whatever it wants in response to October 7th, without regard to the mounting civilian death toll? Is there no line Israel can also cross. You know it is possible to hold space for believing that both what Hamas did was brutal and wrong, while also believing Israel response is getting out of hand itself and worsening a humanitarian crisis. My question for you is what is Israel supposed to do? Do they take the Jimmy Carter approach? This will probably not go over well, but a lot of civilians were complicit. They helped Hamas. They cheered as Hamas paraded the corpses and severed heads through Gaza. They even held some of the hostages. I would say 20,000 civilians of a place of 2.5 million is not a genocide make. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not going to protest a Jewish hospital or glue myself to the street pretending I have the solution. I will once again ask why there is no pressure on Egypt or any of the other Middle Eastern countries to take it refugees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 8 hours ago, oblong said: You can’t murder people w/o retaliation. Stupid Biden. WTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, oblong said: Isn't a sign more about Hamas and Israel more than Biden? What exactly do you people think Biden does in this war? It's not his ****ing war. He didn't start it. He's not fighting it. You act like he's wanting all of this to happen and finally changed his mind because 10,000 people said something to him. Also, this engagement over a possible ceasefire has been going on for weeks now.... it's not something that came up last week on account of the Michigan Primary. It feels crazy that I even have to say this FFS. Edited February 27 by mtutiger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 9 hours ago, oblong said: You can’t murder people w/o retaliation. Stupid Biden. Given how much the Gaza War is succeeding in pulling people even further apart, I gotta wonder how many people sharing super strong and angrily partisan opinions—maybe this El-Kurd guy, for instance—are also getting paid in rubles. Edited February 27 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 39 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: My question for you is what is Israel supposed to do? Do they take the Jimmy Carter approach? This will probably not go over well, but a lot of civilians were complicit. They helped Hamas. They cheered as Hamas paraded the corpses and severed heads through Gaza. They even held some of the hostages. I would say 20,000 civilians of a place of 2.5 million is not a genocide make. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'm not going to protest a Jewish hospital or glue myself to the street pretending I have the solution. I will once again ask why there is no pressure on Egypt or any of the other Middle Eastern countries to take it refugees. The left hold Israel to a higher standard. Why? Anti Semitism? Fear of getting slaughtered in a terrorist attack? Being patronizing, as in, “well they just don’t know any better. This is how they do things. Don’t judge. Even if it gets you killed” The Palestinians, via their governmen, punched Israel hard. Now they are getting punched back and whining about it. Why is the burden always on Israel to concede and give more? A child hostage is treated equally by the left as a terrorist hostage. It makes no sense and the left loses a lot of its moral high ground in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: Given how much the Gaza War is succeeding in pulling people even further apart, I gotta wonder how many people—maybe this El-Kurd guy, for instance—is also getting paid in rubles. I’d bet Russia is behind Hamas. It helps them in Ukraine. Every time we help Ukraine the Arabs go ape ****. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 38 minutes ago, oblong said: The left hold Israel to a higher standard. Why? Anti Semitism? Fear of getting slaughtered in a terrorist attack? Being patronizing, as in, “well they just don’t know any better. This is how they do things. Don’t judge. Even if it gets you killed” Maybe it's also because Israel is the wealthiest and most powerful nation with the greatest military might in the Middle East, a nation that has traditionally enjoyed the full and nearly unquestioned backing of the wealthiest and most powerful nation with the greatest military might on the planet. Of whom much has been given, much is expected. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself, and even to avenge the heinous terrorist act that precipitated all this. But remember, too, that a little more than two decades ago, when their benefactor was also the victim of a heinous terrorist attack, and then that nation went on a two-decade rampage slaughtering people, including civilians, all over the Middle East, very little of the rest of the world stood up and applauded for that as well. Very few people root for Goliath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Israel has the greatest military might in the Middle East because every country in the Middle East is trying to eradicate them. They are also the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the Middle East because they have a diverse economy and not ruled by an oppressive religious monarchy like the rest of the Middle East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 How do you figure Israel is the wealthiest? Where do you rank Saudi Arabia? Turkey? UAE? They have higher GDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Israel is 2nd to Qatar in GDP per capita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Israel spends over 5% of its GDP on defense. That's 6th highest in the world. The US contributes about 20% of Israel's military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, oblong said: How do you figure Israel is the wealthiest? Where do you rank Saudi Arabia? Turkey? UAE? They have higher GDP. Fair point on GDP. Saudi Arabia is higher overall on GDP, about double, although less than half per capita of Israel. Qatar is higher per capita, but less than half of Israel overall. Israel is higher on both than the rest of them, including UAE. Source and source. What Israel has that none of the rest of them have is the full and mostly unquestioned backing of the government of the United States, which is willing to plow billions in resources into Israel to maintain their position in the Middle East. So, it's not as though they are the Little State That Could all on their own out there. It's also a fair point that Israel has to have the military it does, due to existential threats to them arising from the establishment of their state in a region in which they were unwelcome from the start, and undertaken due not to claims to the area recent at the time of its establishment, but apparently on a claim based on an ancient text of disputed provenance. The fact is, though, that regardless of how they got to this point, they are seen by the majority of the world as little bullies throwing their weight around with the biggest bully in the world egging them on. That's not how I personally or emotionally characterize them. That's how they are objectively seen. And given the way they are currently slaughtering Gazan civilians indiscriminately along with the fighters, and have been routinely running Palestinians off their land so they can put up exclusive settlements, I think it's a tall order to expect the rest of the world to root them on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I'm confused what Israel's wealth has to do with anything? They aren't a restrictive country run by a dictatorship and has a modern economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 “These people who butcher gays and restrict women don’t like these other people because they live here so we gotta be on their side” I mean… it kind of sounds like what white people were saying when bussing of blacks took place. “What are they doing here? Get them out. We don’t want them around”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, oblong said: The left hold Israel to a higher standard. Why? Anti Semitism? Fear of getting slaughtered in a terrorist attack? Being patronizing, as in, “well they just don’t know any better. This is how they do things. Don’t judge. Even if it gets you killed” The Palestinians, via their governmen, punched Israel hard. Now they are getting punched back and whining about it. Why is the burden always on Israel to concede and give more? A child hostage is treated equally by the left as a terrorist hostage. It makes no sense and the left loses a lot of its moral high ground in this. I don't hold feel I hold Isreal to a higher standard. I have condemned on numerous occasions what Hamas did. Hell, I even believe Isreal has a right to respond and defend itself. I do have an issue though providing munitions and military aid to dictatorships in any country, be it Israel or Palestine. I'd prefer my tax dollars not help, in any way, shape, or form, prop up a dictatorship and an authoritarian leader using a war for his own PR and political gain. And yes, Netanyahu is an authoritarian and a wannabe dictator. Edited February 28 by Mr.TaterSalad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 24 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: ... I do have an issue though providing munitions and military aid to dictatorships in any country, be it Israel or Palestine. I'd prefer my tax dollars not help, in any way, shape, or form, prop up a dictatorship and an authoritarian leader using a war for his own PR and political gain. And yes, Netanyahu is an authoritarian and a wannabe dictator. Israel is not a dictatorship, it's a Democracy. Are you confused by this? You in fact, admit at the last that Israel is NOT a dictatorship, but that Bibi is a WANNABE DICTATOR. Your words. Or, in other words: NOT a dictatorship. They're a Democracy and your characterization of them as a dictatorship is horse****. Excuse my language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I never hear what Israel was supposed to do other than just give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 21 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Israel is not a dictatorship, it's a Democracy. Are you confused by this? You in fact, admit at the last that Israel is NOT a dictatorship, but that Bibi is a WANNABE DICTATOR. Your words. Or, in other words: NOT a dictatorship. They're a Democracy and your characterization of them as a dictatorship is horse****. Excuse my language. They were a failed judicial coup away from being a dictatorship under Bibi. So if it's not an outright dictatorship, it's a democracy on life support. We'll see if Bibi resigns if the Likud coalition loses its majority. And in any case, I don't feel good about my tax dollars going up prop up a wannabe dictator whose the Isreali version of the man in your avatar photo. Edited February 28 by Mr.TaterSalad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 These ****ing purity contests are going to be the end of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: ... in any case, I don't feel good about my tax dollars going up prop up a wannabe dictator whose the Israeli version... FACT: Israel is getting your tax dollars whether you like Bibi or NOT. Period. Take it up with the House of Representatives... they create ALL U.S. Budgets/ spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 No more than 20% of Israel's defense budget comes from the US. They'll just get it from somewhere else. You don't just abandon an ally like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) Biden bypassed congress twice. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/the-biden-administration-once-again-bypasses-congress-on-an-emergency-weapons-sale-to-israel#:~:text=WASHINGTON (AP) — For the,Gaza under increasing international criticism. Edited February 28 by pfife Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 12 hours ago, chasfh said: given the way they are currently slaughtering Gazan civilians indiscriminately along with the fighters, This is the second time you have used this exact terminology and just like last time I ask where are the facts to back this claim? Edited February 28 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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