1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, GoBlue23 said: What I find online is that there is no definitive proof of who the Canaanites were but that historians don't think they were ever politically united into a single kingdom. So basically, the best guess is that the area was inhabited by various groups with various beliefs. The strongest evidence of that seems to come from the variety of burial customs observed in the area. You claiming to know the truth of the matter after reading some stuff online is absolutely hilarious. You're really no different than the loonies on the right who still believe that Trump won the election. Hilarious? Dude... WTF does "kingdom" or "beliefs" or "burial customs" have anything to do with genetics? You're WAY out of your league and reaching for any straw you can grasp on to. Here, let me help you out (let me know if you need any help understanding the terminology): Definition of SEMITIC (Arabs, Jews, Akkadians & Phoenicians): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people#:~:text=Semitic people or Semites is,"Semitic languages" in linguistics. SEMITIC LANGUAGES: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic-speaking_peoples GENETIC STUDIES of JEWS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_of_Jews#:~:text=Several genetic studies demonstrated that,Middle Eastern and European groups. Now, this is only Wikipedia... If you like, I'll add some scientific studies from Science magazine or Genetics or similar, or links to books that you can read up on to try and catch up. Let me know when you DO catch up because this conversation is finished until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 31 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: What is the evidence of them being the first settlers in the region? Seems to me you're using the Hebrew Bible as your source of information and passing it off as historical fact. Does archeology count. There is evidence. Look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, CMRivdogs said: Does archeology count. There is evidence. Look it up. I'll make it simple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Israel https://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777190209/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: What I find online is that there is no definitive proof of who the Canaanites were but that historians don't think they were ever politically united into a single kingdom. One can go overboard on the skeptics side as well. If nothing else, there is plenty of archaeological evidence still standing and staring one in the face that Jerusalem was the center of an empire large and rich enough to support building a significant city in the pre-Hellenic period, ~11th-9th century BC. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) Here's a REALLY GOOD one: Just how EXACTLY are Palestinians and Jews related...? Basically: First Cousins. From Science.Org: https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry I LOVE this one (from the link I posted above)...: "More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years. The results match historical accounts that ...They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times. And in a recent study of 1371 men from around the world, geneticist Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona in Tucson found that the Y chromosome in Middle Eastern Arabs was almost indistinguishable from that of Jews." Edited February 28 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: Here's a REALLY GOOD one: Just how EXACTLY are Palestinians and Jews related...? Basically: First Cousins. From Science.Org: https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry The other interesting one is that the Palestinians in Gaza live in a area settled by a group modern historians call 'the Sea Peoples" who migrated there possibly after the fall of one of the pre-Greek civilizations, They sailed around creating a fair amount of havoc for a short time - in the 11th Cent BC IIRC (don't quote me on the exact dates), I listened to a couple of lectures about this some time ago. They are a rather enigmatic group in terms of their origins, but they may have brought a more sophisticated culture with them than existed in that area at the time. So the Gazans - or least some of them, may have more complex antecedents than most. There is/was a whole speculative theory about the rise of this group somehow collapsing the commerce that supported the Minoan civilization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I never said they were the FIRST to inhabit the region. I said they CAME from that region, that region is their ANCESTRAL HOME, and they should be ALLOWED to go back to their homes without being MURDERED for it. Do you want me to get you the links to the beginning of Zionism? In 1897 a small percentage of the population decided it had had enough of European Pogroms, Inquisitions, Expulsions, etc... and started to go back to British Palestine (ancient Israel). The start of Zionism (literally: "returning home".) Also, I though this was directly relate to the Ukrainian pogrom in which roughly 250K Jews were beaten to death or burned to death (unverifiable number) in Ukraine by Christian Cossaks, but that happened between 1915 and 1920, so my timing is off. But NOT the reason they started to head back to their homeland. When they got there, they BOUGHT land. Built houses, drained swamps, created farms. Through PURCHASES from the Palestinians. Here is a history of land purchases by early Israeli Jews and also a history of the violence between Palestinians and Jews PRE-Dating Israel's Independence in 1947: https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/The-Arab-Revolt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 As the only resident Bible thumper. Most folks in the Bible can historically identified outside of the ahhem fairy tales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) 35 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Proving the Jews are from the region and proving they were the first to inhabit the specific area being fought over are two very different things. Just to be accurate, the claim of 'first to inhabit' isn't even made in the Torah. The covenant with Abraham explicitly gave him possession of land that was already inhabited by other people. He was an emigre into the area from the East. (and in fairness, the current Arab claim to the land itself only goes back to the Islamic conquest of the people already living there before the 8th Century) Bringing forward ancient historical arguments about current national boundaries is in the end an exercise than can only lead to futility and very pointless wars (I see you V. Putin). All we can say that matters is the state of Israel exists were is does because the UN put it there in present day history and that its borders are the result of that and the practical outcomes of continued military clashes with its neighbors. I suppose one can easily say that it was just another example of European imperialism for the Western powers to take chunk of real estate from the collapsed Ottoman empire rather than offer up one of their own (the South of France maybe?) to Jews in expiation of their Holocaust guilt. Everyone is some kind of victim of history? Edited February 28 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: The other interesting one is that the Palestinians in Gaza live in a area settled by a group modern historians call 'the Sea Peoples" who migrated there possibly ... Let me correct some history here: There was a major trading economy from England to Pakistan prior to the Sea Peoples. Bronze and Lapis Lazuli were the keys. Lapis Lazuli = purple stone from Pakistan and the mountains of Afghanistan, crushed to make purple ("Royal") die to color robes, rugs, etc. Bronze = well, it WAS the Bronze Age after all... Bronze made of Copper and Tin. Tin all the way from England. This is the time of Mycenaean Greece (think Troy/ Achilles/ etc... NOT classical Greece of Athens & Sparta...); the Minoans had already been defeated by the Greeks (archaelogical evidence is pointing to volcanic/ earthquake/ tsunami disruption that badly weakened them and allowed Greece to take over much of the Mediterranean... This PRE-DATES the Sea Peoples); the Hittite Empire in Turkey, the highpoint of Egyptian Pharoahs and military power and pyramid-building, the Babylonian Empire, etc... Here is info on the trading network and especially the sourcing of tin (the first one is the impact of "The Sea Peoples" on the trading network of the time (roughly 1,200 BCE): which was: a collapse of the trading network, the first "Dark Ages", the destruction of the Mycenaean and Hittite empires, a devastation of the Egyptians (they survived but were taken over shortly thereafter by the Sudanese (of that time period), the collapse of writing, etc...): https://www.thecollector.com/bronze-age-collapse/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times#:~:text=It has been claimed that,Portugal around the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: The number is less than 100 out of the thousands of people mentioned. Also, how does the occasional mention of a verifiable historical figure prove any of the outlandish stories to be true? LOL this guy LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 13 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: Bottom line here, you're trying to use ancient history to justify the IDF throwing people out of their homes and bulldozing entire neighborhoods. That's just sick and wrong. I have NOT used that as a justification as you've stated. That is a flat out lie. I have ONLY used their genetics as a reason to state that they should be ALLOWED to live in Israel. In fact, I gave you links that state SPECIFICALLY that returning Jews PURCHASED Palestinian land. LEGALLY. But don't let facts get in the way of your agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Oh PLEASE let's not turn this thread topic into another referendum on religious belief. I thought we had an ACTUAL thread for that if you want to start up that argument again? Otherwise, it's just unnecessary and NOT-appreciated POLLUTION in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 7 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: It's obviously a valid question, seems you can't provide a good answer. Lets try this again. How does the occasional mention of someone known to have lived make your belief that "In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth" any more credible? You do realize the Palastinian struggle can be linked 100% to their religous beliefs and the idea they need to destroy Israel right? Edited February 28 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, Tigeraholic1 said: You do realize the Palastinian struggle can be linked 100% to their religous beliefs and the idea they need to destroy Isreal right? For 25 years the Palestinians were perfectly fine with letting in Jews and selling land to Jews (roughly 1897-1921 or so...) And... THEN... They realized, just like the Mexicans (in Texas) around 1840 or so that... "WHOOPS!!!", maybe they were making a mistake... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, GoBlue23 said: Nothing prior to 1947 is relevant to the discussion. Says YOU. It ABSOLUTELY is relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMRivdogs Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 You wold think THIS would give them some legitimacy https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel#:~:text=On November 29%2C 1947 the,mandate was scheduled to end. In May 1946, Truman announced his approval of a recommendation to admit 100,000 displaced persons into Palestine and in October publicly declared his support for the creation of a Jewish state. Throughout 1947, the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine examined the Palestinian question and recommended the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state. On November 29, 1947 the United Nations adopted Resolution 181 (also known as the Partition Resolution) that would divide Great Britain’s former Palestinian mandate into Jewish and Arab states in May 1948 when the British mandate was scheduled to end. Under the resolution, the area of religious significance surrounding Jerusalem would remain a corpus separatum under international control administered by the United Nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 (edited) 27 minutes ago, GoBlue23 said: As I've said in the past, I think both sides suck and that this is going to go on forever if people don't come to their senses and reject silly superstitions. This, but also there is real economic loss which is more than a matter of superstition. The fact that the Arab world decided to fight the Partition by not admitting Palestinian refugees, means you have millions of displaced families who have not been given a chance to rebuild lives and 'get on with it' somewhere new on a permanent basis, as the victims of displacement in most conflicts do. Even if you always have a certain number of 'dead-enders' the pressure in most displacement situations dissipates in a generation or so because people do move on - a Palestinian in Egypt eventually becomes an Egyptian of Palestinian origin and if not true for him at least for his children. That process has been frozen here and it is another piece immobilizing the conflict. Every potential deal between Israel and the Palestinians in the past had foundered over "Right of Return." ROR won't die as an issue for Palestinians because since Partition they have had no-where to go, and of course "Right of Return" is a non-starter for Israel as it is fundamentally a reversal of Partition. Edited February 28 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 5 hours ago, pfife said: Idk if and why he hasn't done the same for Ukraine. The Newshour is legit af so you should apologize It was a joke, I'm not going to apologize because you can't recognize that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 55 minutes ago, ewsieg said: It was a joke, I'm not going to apologize because you can't recognize that. Even more reason to apologize if we're being honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewsieg Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 55 minutes ago, pfife said: Even more reason to apologize if we're being honest Pfife, I apologize to you that I besmirched the good name of PBS. Based on my past experiences with you I should have known you could not take the joke and you'd be an ass about it....and that is entirely my fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfife Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 1 hour ago, ewsieg said: Pfife, I apologize to you that I besmirched the good name of PBS. Based on my past experiences with you I should have known you could not take the joke and you'd be an ass about it....and that is entirely my fault. You should apologize for that apology as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) 22 hours ago, chasfh said: Here's something from today in CNN, just today. https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2024/02/middleeast/israel-bombing-family-gaza-investigation-intl-cmd/ Here's something from Amnesty International, a non-Palestinian organization, earlier this month: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-opt-new-evidence-of-unlawful-israeli-attacks-in-gaza-causing-mass-civilian-casualties-amid-real-risk-of-genocide/ This is an opinion from an Israeli journalist published in a newspaper published in Israel in Hebrew and targeted to Israelis—you'll need to provide your email address to read the whole thing: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-28/ty-article-opinion/.premium/sanctifying-the-indiscriminate-killing-in-gaza-is-israels-second-defeat/0000018c-ace3-d22d-a3dd-bdfbb0fe0000 Will this do? From the CNN article: The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told CNN they were responding to enemy fire from the warehouse. One eyewitness said he heard what he called “resistance fire,” referring to fire from Hamas or another militant group, and local journalists reported “clashes” in the area that day. War is hell and yes innocent people die in war. As to Israel indiscriminately targeting civillains I don't buy it. Edited February 29 by Tigeraholic1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 3 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: From the CNN article: The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told CNN they were responding to enemy fire from the warehouse. One eyewitness said he heard what he called “resistance fire,” referring to fire from Hamas or another militant group, and local journalists reported “clashes” in the area that day. War is hell and yes innocent people die in war. As to Israel indiscriminately targeting civillains I don't buy it. Yeah I'm not sure what people expect. You go attack and kill over a thousand civilians and then go hide in tunnels amongst citizens and not expect any civilian casualties? Hamas brought this on and people are demanding Israel just back away and let Hamas keep the hostages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) 17 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: Would you like me to start pulling the genetic and linguistic studies that support these facts? Would that help? Actually, I’d like to see this. At your leisure. Thanks. EDIT: Hold that pizza, I see some detail has been provided in subsequent posts. Will review. Thanks. Edited February 29 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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