mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 14 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: We need to drop the military aid we're giving without condition and place actual, tenable conditions on that aid and hold Isreal to it. We also need to publicly call out Bibi, just as we have called out Hamas, for who he is and what he's attempted to do to democracy in Isreal. The public criticism needs to be ratcheted up and the military aid needs to either be restricted with heavy conditions or stopped entirely imo. Even former Biden staffers who host a nationally recognized podcast, who are loyalists of his, are demanding he do more publicly and change direction towards Israel. Jon Favreau isn't a former Biden staffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Jon Favreau isn't a former Biden staffer. Yeah but if we do 6 degrees of Joe Biden he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 13 hours ago, Motown Bombers said: Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East and the people of Israel will need to deal with Bibi. Interesting ... https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-792939 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said: The point is he has no inside knowledge of Biden's administration so don't present it as such. It's also not a secret that a bunch of Obama's people have never exactly been huge fans of Joe Biden... and Favreau and the PodBros all come from Obama's orbit. Merits aside, the "even ____ said ____" line doesn't exactly apply here IMO. Edited April 4 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 16 hours ago, gehringer_2 said: All the above said, I still think it's odd optics at the least for the admin to be publicly castigating Netanyahu while simultaneously proposing additional arms sales to his government. And it's not like Israel needs F15s in Gaza, or would even get them in time for this conflict. The only way the timing of this make sense is if the Admim is setting up to get the GOP right wing committed to this and then turn around and tie it to Ukraine support. Other than that is does seem like a tone deaf FP move for Biden, and his FP chops are generally better than that. 15 hours ago, 1984Echoes said: On this I can agree with. At the very least, Biden should have gone to the podium and said "All weapons sales to the State of Israel are halted until there is a humanitarian resolution to the current Israel-induced famine in Gaza. We will play our part. But all weapons sales are halted until Israel also does its part, which it is unacceptably failing, miserably." This all makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 minutes ago, chasfh said: Interesting ... https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-792939 Equally interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Jon Favreau isn't a former Biden staffer. He was a White House staffer and Director of Speech Writing while Biden served in Obama's White House as VP. The point is that people like Favreau and Tommy Vietor aren't low level staffers or radical left wing shmucks being critical of the administrations policies towards the Israeli war effort. Now you are starting to see respected elected officials, who are center/center-left types not progressives, like a Chris Murphy, come out and critique and change US policy towards the Israeli war effort. If we sit idly by and continue to send munitions and weapons to Israel while they do a full scale invasion of Rafah it's only going to get worse, both in terms of the death toll in Gaza and in terms of the political situation at home for Biden. Banging your head against the wall and shouting Hamas could stop this at any time isn't an effective political strategy for the Biden administration. It hasn't worked to this point and won't make the situation any better IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 6 minutes ago, mtutiger said: It's also not a secret that a bunch of Obama's people have never exactly been huge fans of Joe Biden... and Favreau and the PodBros all come from Obama's orbit. Merits aside, the "even ____ said ____" line doesn't exactly apply here IMO. Yeah there seems to be some sort of bitterness from some of Obama's people towards Biden. I had to quit listening to David Axelrod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Just now, Mr.TaterSalad said: He was a White House staffer and Director of Speech Writing while Biden served in Obama's White House as VP. David Axelrod worked in The White House while Biden was VP and it is commonly accepted that Axelrod doesn't like Joe Biden. It's not that hard to figure out that, while staffers and politicians may share parties or even administrations together, there can be rivalries, disagreements, distrust or even outright hatred among them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 minute ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: He was a White House staffer and Director of Speech Writing while Biden served in Obama's White House as VP. The point is that people like Favreau and Tommy Vietor aren't low level staffers or radical left wing shmucks being critical of the administrations policies towards the Israeli war effort. Now you are starting to see respected elected officials, who are center/center-left types not progressives, like a Chris Murphy, come out and critique and change US policy towards the Israeli war effort. If we sit idly by and continue to send munitions and weapons to Israel while they do a full scale invasion of Rafah it's only going to get worse, both in terms of the death toll in Gaza and in terms of the political situation at home for Biden. Banging your head against the wall and shouting Hamas could stop this at any time isn't an effective political strategy for the Biden administration. It hasn't worked to this point and won't make the situation any better IMO. So the demand was for Biden to call for a ceasefire and now the goalposts have moved. We get it, tankies just want Israel to surrender. Polling shows most Americans support Israel. We just have a lot of loud tankies who protest Jewish hospitals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said: Yeah there seems to be some sort of bitterness from some of Obama's people towards Biden. I had to quit listening to David Axelrod. I'm fine with Axelrod, I think he is more of an honest broker than the Biden people give him credit for, but he pretty clearly doesn't like Biden and the feeling is clearly mutual on the other side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: David Axelrod worked in The White House while Biden was VP and it is commonly accepted that Axelrod doesn't like Joe Biden. It's not that hard to figure out that, while staffers and politicians may share parties or even administrations together, there can be rivalries, disagreements, distrust or even outright hatred among them. They're also podcasters now and need to drive people to their content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: Banging your head against the wall and shouting Hamas could stop this at any time isn't an effective political strategy for the Biden administration. It hasn't worked to this point and won't make the situation any better IMO. What's your plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: Equally interesting That's a counterpoint from a different source, yes. Edited April 4 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Gallup: Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza Quote The latest results are from a March 1-20 survey. The Israel-Hamas war has continued for five months and has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians and over 1,000 Israelis. Major parts of Gaza have been destroyed, complicating efforts to deliver humanitarian aid to Palestinian civilians still living there. The United Nations and international community, including the Biden administration, have called for a cease-fire, but the two warring sides have been unable to agree. The poll was completed before the U.N. Security Council on Monday passed a resolution calling for a cease-fire during Ramadan. The measure passed because the United States abstained rather than vetoing the resolution. The U.S. had previously vetoed other resolutions calling for a cease-fire. Seventy-four percent of U.S. adults say they are following news of the Israeli-Hamas situation closely, similar to the 72% Gallup measured in November. One-third of Americans (34%) say they are following the situation “very closely.” Disapproval of Israel’s military action is similar regardless of how much attention Americans are paying to the conflict. However, those paying less attention are more likely than their counterparts to have no opinion on the matter, resulting in lower approval than seen among people paying greater attention. Independents have shifted from being divided in their views of the Israeli military action to opposing it. Democrats, who were already largely opposed in November, are even more so now, with 18% approving and 75% disapproving. That's a lot of tankies that oppose what Israel is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 minutes ago, chasfh said: That's a counterpoint from a different source, yes. Which is why it's interesting, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Just now, Motown Bombers said: Which is why it's interesting, yes. I especially like how you compare Israel's "Freedom in the World" with the United States' "Freedom on the Net", as though they are the same. I almost missed it. Pretty slick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: What's your plan? Israeli surrender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Have people considered the possibility that Biden could still reverse course? Because if Coons is saying something like this, it wouldn't surprise me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 minutes ago, mtutiger said: What's your plan? What I've been saying all along, condition military aid based on Netanyahu's current and future actions. If he does a full scale ground invasion of Rafah and tens-of-thousands more civilians die, and a famine breaks out, condemn the invasion and act upon the conditions put in place regarding military aid to Israel. Also, cancel the sale of the F-15 fighter jets that were planned to be sold to the IDF. Also, to continue to strongly condemn Netanyahu for his brazen actions to thwart democratic institutions in Israel and work to build relations with opposition leadership to restore democracy in Israel. All of this can be done simultaneously to condemning Hamas and working to bring new leadership to Gaza that is Palestinian controlled. Trying to obliterate Hamas by invading Rafah, prolonging the war, and occupying Gaza will work about as well as trying to obliterate the Taliban in Afghanistan. You'll end up with a permanent occupation that breeds more extremism, hatred, and ultimately violent terrorists. Have we learned nothing from occupying Afghanistan for the last 20 years? What's your plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) 6 minutes ago, chasfh said: I especially like how you compare Israel's "Freedom in the World" with the United States' "Freedom on the Net", as though they are the same. I almost missed it. Pretty slick! I only added the United States as a frame of reference for where the countries rank. There are a lot of countries that ranks higher than the US. Every country is evaluated on the same criteria. What I posted was a summary and the top 3 where each country ranks the lowest. You can read the full report here: Gaza Strip: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House *EDIT* I got the wrong one for the US. The US is an 83. Edited April 4 by Motown Bombers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.TaterSalad Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 minute ago, mtutiger said: Have people considered the possibility that Biden could still reverse course? Because if Coons is saying something like this, it wouldn't surprise me Yes, I have considered that and hope he does. And I for one will applaud any elected leader, Biden or otherwise, who supports conditioning military aid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said: What I've been saying all along, condition military aid based on Netanyahu's current and future actions. If he does a full scale ground invasion of Rafah and tens-of-thousands more civilians die, and a famine breaks out, condemn the invasion and act upon the conditions put in place regarding military aid to Israel. Also, cancel the sale of the F-15 fighter jets that were planned to be sold to the IDF. Also, to continue to strongly condemn Netanyahu for his brazen actions to thwart democratic institutions in Israel and work to build relations with opposition leadership to restore democracy in Israel. Honestly, it's a lot of what you are saying. Where we disagree is that, IMO, the administration probably understands and internalizes these same things but has the added weight of having to worry about how these actions would influence broader stability in the ME. For instance, do these actions creater further tension or embolden Iran, for instance? It's easy for Jon Favreau and the PodBros to lob grenades on this stuff because it isn't their responsibility to have to worry about the consequences.... it's a lot harder when you are the Principal and have to piece it together. Edited April 4 by mtutiger 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Initially it was Biden needed to call for a ceasefire. He got Israel to agree to a ceasefire. Now he needs to strong Israel into giving up. No pressure at all on Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 24 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: I only added the United States as a frame of reference for where the countries rank. There are a lot of countries that ranks higher than the US. Every country is evaluated on the same criteria. What I posted was a summary and the top 3 where each country ranks the lowest. You can read the full report here: Gaza Strip: Freedom in the World 2023 Country Report | Freedom House *EDIT* I got the wrong one for the US. The US is an 83. Setting aside the whatabouts, the point is that, contrary to your earlier assertion, a respected organization has just in the last two weeks removed Israel from its list of liberal democracies for the first time in fifty years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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