gehringer_2 Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, oblong said: and it's disappointing to see it so prominent on the left. This is not a right wing thing. Sure there's extreme right wing anti semites but I don't think the increase we've seen the last 2 weeks is due to them. It's the college crazies. Antisemitism is one thing, but Israel has also lost a lot of left wing political sympathy apart from that based on their treatment of the Palestinians under Likud. I don't know any liberal person who has been to Israel in recent years that doesn't come back with increased sympathy for the Palestinians' cause. Hamas' barbarity now forces people to make another re-calibration in their assessments. Edited October 30, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 56 minutes ago, oblong said: and it's disappointing to see it so prominent on the left. This is not a right wing thing. Sure there's extreme right wing anti semites but I don't think the increase we've seen the last 2 weeks is due to them. It's the college crazies. I'm having trouble squaring up the idea of "the left" with the idea of antisemitism. Maybe I'm not fully understanding the full breadth of what constitutes "the left". What is even a "the left" principle that would unify a progressive liberal and an overt antisemite? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romad1 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 the horseshoe of radicalism is where the anti-semites on the left and right can agree. Sickening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 37 minutes ago, chasfh said: I'm having trouble squaring up the idea of "the left" with the idea of antisemitism. Maybe I'm not fully understanding the full breadth of what constitutes "the left". What is even a "the left" principle that would unify a progressive liberal and an overt antisemite? Democratic Socialists of America. They've had some high profile defections over the last few weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: Antisemitism is one thing, but Israel has also lost a lot of left wing political sympathy apart from that based on their treatment of the Palestinians under Likud. I don't know any liberal person who has been to Israel in recent years that doesn't come back with increased sympathy for the Palestinians' cause. Hamas' barbarity now forces people to make another re-calibration in their assessments. But what does that have to do with treatment of Jews who are not in Israel and have nothing to do with what the government does there? If someone's targeting Jews in a university, and many other places, who are not in Israel and not part of the government then I will call that antisemitism. Not everyone at a Trump rally are racists and confederates but when you see some of the flags and T shirts and slogans mixed in.... I see no difference here with regard to Israel and Jews. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: Antisemitism is one thing, but Israel has also lost a lot of left wing political sympathy apart from that based on their treatment of the Palestinians under Likud. I don't know any liberal person who has been to Israel in recent years that doesn't come back with increased sympathy for the Palestinians' cause. Hamas' barbarity now forces people to make another re-calibration in their assessments. Not sure what this has to do with Jewish students facing threats or campus police having to be stationed outside of a Cornell dining hall. Criticism of Netanyahu or the Likud Party? Fine by me, he's terrible and bears a lot of responsibility for this crisis. Criticism of Israel's policy vis a vis Palestine? Fair game as well. But I think we can all see that there are instances on the left where it has gone beyond policies or Israel's current government and has entered into antisemitic territory... and that is unacceptable. Full stop, and without any "whataboutisms". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 3 minutes ago, mtutiger said: Not sure what this has to do with Jewish students facing threats or campus police having to be stationed outside of a Cornell dining hall. Criticism of Netanyahu or the Likud Party? Fine by me, he's terrible and bears a lot of responsibility for this crisis. Criticism of Israel's policy vis a vis Palestine? Fair game as well. But I think we can all see that there are instances on the left where it has gone beyond policies or Israel's current government and has entered into antisemitic territory... and that is unacceptable. Full stop, and without any "whataboutisms". I think the connection is that since there has been an increased political alignment between liberals and more pro-palestinian groups, which inevitably contain antisemetic factions/connections, that those factions feel they have achieved some level of standing or 'cover' or license to express the antisemitism present in their orgs. There is a certain parallel to the way US conservatism has increased the license felt by American racists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 15 minutes ago, oblong said: Democratic Socialists of America. They've had some high profile defections over the last few weeks. The many instances of colleges and universities releasing wishy-washy statements in the aftermath of the initial attacks, given how zealous many of these same institutions ordinarily are to issue statements on any number of other outrages, is pretty telling as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Just now, gehringer_2 said: I think the connection is that since there has been an increased political alignment between liberals and more pro-palestinian groups, which inevitably contain antisemetic factions/connections, that those factions feel they have achieved some level of standing or 'cover' or license to express the antisemitism present in their orgs. There is a certain parallel to the way US conservatism has increased the license felt by American racists. You are exactly right. And just as one rightly criticizes the racists who have been given license by US conservative figures, it seems like the same level of consistency needs to be applied toward who give antisemitism license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigeraholic1 Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Young folks on each side of the political spectrum are products of the pure internet age. They are exposed to whatever revisionist history they were brought up around. Where we had to bust out a book to find a fact now the internet guides them. Really hard to find the truth these days especially when you don't look to hard for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 3 hours ago, chasfh said: I'm having trouble squaring up the idea of "the left" with the idea of antisemitism. Maybe I'm not fully understanding the full breadth of what constitutes "the left". What is even a "the left" principle that would unify a progressive liberal and an overt antisemite? A pro-Muslim/ Palestinian position. Or simply, a Muslim on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, oblong said: But what does that have to do with treatment of Jews who are not in Israel and have nothing to do with what the government does there? ... You're asking this question? Trump says "China Flu" and shortly thereafter hundreds of Chinese-Americans, nay, ANY Asian American, not even of Chinese descent, are beaten. Some of them to death. In America. Any excuse to enact violence, against someone who isn't like you (the general you, I'm not stating this specifically to you oblong)... In any country. At any time. Any excuse whatsoever. Religious, ethnic, skin-color... Hatred uses any excuse. Whatsoever. Edited October 30, 2023 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: You're asking this question? ... Actually, I should rephrase that... I see that you were really asking that question as a response to G2's post, in which: I agree with you... Political gains/ losses based on positions/ history to not change the definition of antisemitism. Antisemitism is antisemitism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I may just have a blind spot about it, because honestly I am not animated by issues relating to the Middle East, but I don't think I have ever seen any general hatred of Jewish people by those who identify as liberals. I suspect there are some fine-tooth comb points that could be made that conflates concern or support for the Palestinian people (separate from Hamas) with antisemitism, but I when think about antisemitism as a broad personal trait, versus as an accusation hurled in response to some isolated action or statement, all the Jew-hating I have seen has come from the right. But again, I may just have a blind spot about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 35 minutes ago, chasfh said: I may just have a blind spot about it, because honestly I am not animated by issues relating to the Middle East, but I don't think I have ever seen any general hatred of Jewish people by those who identify as liberals. I suspect there are some fine-tooth comb points that could be made that conflates concern or support for the Palestinian people (separate from Hamas) with antisemitism, but I when think about antisemitism as a broad personal trait, versus as an accusation hurled in response to some isolated action or statement, all the Jew-hating I have seen has come from the right. But again, I may just have a blind spot about it. The point isn’t that the left or liberals are displaying antisemitism. It’s that some elements of the left, the extreme portion I guess, are. Whether it’s anti Israel or anti Semitism is semantics to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, oblong said: The point isn’t that the left or liberals are displaying antisemitism. It’s that some elements of the left, the extreme portion I guess, are. Whether it’s anti Israel or anti Semitism is semantics to me. I don't think of anti-Israel (the country) and antisemitism (the people) as being the same, although Jewish people themselves might be inclined to dispute that. In any event, I don't even know what elements of the left would hate Jews in the way certain types of right-wingers would. Deep Jewish involvement itself is woven into the fabric of the left wing, so anyone who claims to be part of the left and would also support persecution or at least marginalization of Jews within society makes me believe they are actually right-wingers in left-wing clothing, the way Soviet Russians were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 25 minutes ago, oblong said: The point isn’t that the left or liberals are displaying antisemitism. It’s that some elements of the left, the extreme portion I guess, are. Whether it’s anti Israel or anti Semitism is semantics to me. Are we really having a debate over whether death threats against Jewish students at Cornell University are antisemitism or not? If it was hardcore Trumpers who posted those things, there's zero doubt it in my mind it would be easier to acknowledge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 45 minutes ago, chasfh said: I don't think of anti-Israel (the country) and antisemitism (the people) as being the same, although Jewish people themselves might be inclined to dispute that. In any event, I don't even know what elements of the left would hate Jews in the way certain types of right-wingers would. Deep Jewish involvement itself is woven into the fabric of the left wing, so anyone who claims to be part of the left and would also support persecution or at least marginalization of Jews within society makes me believe they are actually right-wingers in left-wing clothing, the way Soviet Russians were. Clearly you aren't seeing the same things I am seeing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-democrats-lash-socialist-organization-for-backing-rally-supporting-hamas-attack/ https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bds-dsa-antisemitism-israel/ I would strongly argue that a lack of outrage over what happened on Oct 7 or to try to justify it amounts to antisemitism. Just because it's not the same words as those on the right make it's still antisemtism. Think of it as being anti black because you think they are inferior to whites or being anti black just by suggesting they have their own schools and bathrooms and such and such.... both schools of thought are wrong. Anti semtiism can have more than one definition. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, oblong said: Clearly you aren't seeing the same things I am seeing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-democrats-lash-socialist-organization-for-backing-rally-supporting-hamas-attack/ https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bds-dsa-antisemitism-israel/ I would strongly argue that a lack of outrage over what happened on Oct 7 or to try to justify it amounts to antisemitism. Just because it's not the same words as those on the right make it's still antisemtism. Think of it as being anti black because you think they are inferior to whites or being anti black just by suggesting they have their own schools and bathrooms and such and such.... both schools of thought are wrong. Anti semtiism can have more than one definition. I didn't intend to touch a nerve. I have never regarded mere opposition to Israeli government policies as being antisemitic, and I have never known of any liberals who hate Jews and want to marginalize, persecute, or genocide them, as some right-wing extremist groups might. That was really the only point I was trying to make. Do the DSA (whom I'd honestly never heard of before today) hate Jews? If they do, then I imagine they would agree with the Times of Israel's characterization that they ''support [the October 7] Palestinian terror onslaught against Israelis." That would be the first time I'd heard of any American mainstream political organization (which I would assume this is one) supporting terrorist murder, which would be honestly surprising to me. But then, like I say, I've traditionally not been animated by Middle East issues and so i don't follow the particulars as closely as some might. I do recognize that this is a minefield topic, though, and it's really hard to tread any objective ground on it. Edited October 30, 2023 by chasfh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 No, nothing triggered. I’m just kind of surprised. The far left being not terribly friendly to Jews is a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 i stumbled across this. I don’t know who this person is but it’s a sentiment I have seen expressed many times the last few weeks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, oblong said: Clearly you aren't seeing the same things I am seeing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-democrats-lash-socialist-organization-for-backing-rally-supporting-hamas-attack/ https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bds-dsa-antisemitism-israel/ I would strongly argue that a lack of outrage over what happened on Oct 7 or to try to justify it amounts to antisemitism. Just because it's not the same words as those on the right make it's still antisemtism. There were some initial reactions to October 7th, IMO, but they are completely memory-holed for a lot of the loudest voices. Like, a lot of the pro-Palestinian types I see on the news or online just seem to pretend or ignore that even happened, when it's a pretty significant piece of context as to why everything since has transpired. And yeah, I think that overlooking the initial event is intentional for some as well. Edited October 30, 2023 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 One other thing: Wadea Al Fayoume, the 6 year old who was murdered a couple of weeks ago in Illinois, was from our new area... drive by the house a decent amount even. When it happened, the condemnation was universal and for good reason: Islamophobia is unacceptable, without condition. Jewish leaders in the Chicago area expressed those same thoughts, unequivocally. Because it was Islamophobia and it needs to be acknowledged. So when you see what happen like what happened in Ithaca with a dorm hall being threatened and police officers having to be brought in to offer protection, a simple acknowledgment that it is antisemitism seems to be a pretty reasonable ask. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 27 minutes ago, mtutiger said: One other thing: Wadea Al Fayoume, the 6 year old who was murdered a couple of weeks ago in Illinois, was from our new area... drive by the house a decent amount even. When it happened, the condemnation was universal and for good reason: Islamophobia is unacceptable, without condition. Jewish leaders in the Chicago area expressed those same thoughts, unequivocally. Because it was Islamophobia and it needs to be acknowledged. So when you see what happen like what happened in Ithaca with a dorm hall being threatened and police officers having to be brought in to offer protection, a simple acknowledgment that it is antisemitism seems to be a pretty reasonable ask. Two rabbis attended the funeral. I saw a photo of them with the Iman of the mosque and parents. condemnation, when it happens, of Oct 7 aways comes with a caveat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 3 hours ago, oblong said: No, nothing triggered. I’m just kind of surprised. The far left being not terribly friendly to Jews is a thing. I believe chas said that he was unaware of “liberals” necessarily being anti Jewish. Using the definition I have accepted to describe liberals, I agree. I often hear negative comments about what this liberal said or what that liberal did. The word liberal for a lot of people is a substitute for the word Democrat. For years that was, imho, acceptable and, weighed against conservative principles, often true. However, the extreme left/radical left/progressive left are still, incorrectly so, labeled liberals. I believe that’s where the confusion arises in some of the conversations. My two cents worth…. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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