11/08/2023 8:00 EDT Milwaukee Bucks vs Detroit Pistons

[NYLion]

I loved the Sasser pick on draft day because he just has that microwave ability to get buckets, plus the intensity on the defensive end. I'm interested to see what his ceiling is because I think it's higher than some people might think.

Cade continues to make poor decisions when teams ratchet up the pressure. This has always been an issue for him and was something I hope would get fixed with more experience but hasn't thus far. His statline looks good but he was poor in the clutch again.

I suppose this can be looked at as a "good loss" but I look at it as a choke. They had the game in control and completely wilted once the Bucks put it into next gear, without Giannis and Middleton btw. At some point, they need to learn how to win a few of these and I see no progression in that respect which is concerning the longer this goes on because constant losing becomes contagious and is a really hard mentality to rid of when it happens too often.

Edited November 9, 2023 by NYLion

[buddha]

once again a team rests their best players against detroit and once again detroit loses.

[gehringer_2]

24 minutes ago, NYLion said:

Cade continues to make poor decisions when teams ratchet up the pressure. This has always been an issue for him and was something I hope would get fixed with more experience but hasn't thus far. His statline looks good but he was poor in the clutch again.

I suppose this can be looked at as a "good loss" but I look at it as a choke.

In their defense, they did get a couple of wide open 3 looks as a result of the doubles on Cade, but Stew and Thomspson couldn't hit them.

[Hart]

7 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

If Cade Cunningham weren't Cade Cunningham, Monty would have put Killian back in the game and tried to recapture the flow the offense had that went straight down the tubes when Cade came back in. It's terrible to watch a team double Cade all the way out to the time line and the Pistons don't have the movement, passing, or shooting to pick up the easy buckets that should be making available.

I didn’t watch the game but know exactly what you mean because it’s been the same story basically every game.  At some point, it’s more on the coaching than it is on Cade for putting so much emphasis on him running the point.  Maybe they think it’s part of his growth and he needs to figure it out.  I’m skeptical of that.  I believe long term, the Pistons need a guy that is going to be the point guard to handle a large share of the point guard duties next to Cade.  

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hart

[NYLion]

9 hours ago, buddha said:

once again a team rests their best players against detroit and once again detroit loses.

Who did Milwaukee rest? Middleton is injured I believe and Giannis got himself kicked out of the game in the 3rd. Also, the Pistons have missed like 4-6 rotation players pretty much the entire season so it's hard to feel bad for other teams missing players.

Edited November 9, 2023 by NYLion

[Betrayer]

I hear fans blaming Cade and that's just wild to me. The dude had 33, 8, and 8. It's his third 30 point game of this season already. He carried the team in the 2nd and 3rd quarter until Sasser came in and lit it up in the late 3rd and early 4th. Also, the idea posted here that Cade should've stayed on the bench in favor of Killian is just bonkers. If you want to know what actually happened to lose this game:

1. On defense the Buck went to an aggressive zone that we couldn't score against. Why? Because it meant multiple defenders on Cade or Sasser as soon as they dribbled past the three point line. With no respected shooters the spacing was terrible and even when Cade got it to an open man they missed it (3 times in the corner for Stew and once for Ausar). 

2. On offense the Bucks went to a high screen and roll with Dame and Lopez. We all know Lopez moves on every screen (not called) and if you touch Dame he throws his body into you and gets the call. But the bigger problem was the lack of adjustments from Monty - and this is the type of thing that Suns fans complained about. We continued to play drop coverage with Duren against the exact same offensive set over and over. Guess what? We got burned over and over because you can't play drop against Dame when he's cooking. He's either going to shoot an open three if the big drops too far or come at your big with a head of steam and get a foul call. You have to switch or trap the ball out of his hands and rotate defensively. That probably also means changing personnel to a faster lineup, which is how most big men get played off the court in the playoffs.

Sure, Cade needs to clean up the turnovers, but let's look at the big picture here:

Cade is currently 4th in usage across the entire NBA and averaging 5.4 turnovers (he had 5 last night). The other ball handler who's top 4 is Luka averaging 4.9 turnovers per game. The other two in the top 4 are big men and even they both average 3.7 (Giannis and Embiid). The 5th guy on the list? Durant averaging 4.3 per game.

So let's not act like Cade is that far off from those other high usage guys. Yes, you'd like him to cut it down by 1 or 1.5 per game, but he's also working with no spacing, getting multiple defenders every time he touches the ball, and has just played the 85th game of his entire career.

This loss was painful but Cade was actually one of the few bright spots, along with Sasser.

In regards to Giannis getting booted, I hear people calling it weak and I don't understand that. He dunked the ball and then took steps towards Stew while staring directly into his face standing 6" from him. That's a Technical Foul all day long and has been for years. If they didn't call a tech that would've been some serious star treatment. Maybe people are forgetting that Giannis already had one tech earlier in the game so this was his second of the night?

Edited November 9, 2023 by Betrayer

[gehringer_2]

25 minutes ago, Betrayer said:

Cade is currently 4th in usage across the entire NBA and averaging 5.4 turnovers (he had 5 last night). The other ball handler who's top 4 is Luka averaging 4.9 turnovers per game. The other two in the top 4 are big men and even they both average 3.7 (Giannis and Embiid). The 5th guy on the list? Durant averaging 4.3 per game.

Yup, after Lillard traffic-coned Duren the 1st time you could see it coming.

The one push back I would make is that Cade also has a worse A/TO ratio than Luka or even Embiid. IOW, the TO number would be easier to accept if he were a better passer than he is. And granted, put him on the court with other better players and we should see more successful assists, but like his shooting, that jury is still out until we see it. And likewise the scoring is great but again, how impressive is it measured against his usage? His EFG is not in Luka's ballpark. Right now he is the is almost the only  option on a epicly bad offensive team, which results in too much forced offense for Cade. Cade's bad luck to have come to this team and now a coach who seems to be OK with too much hero ball.

Edited November 9, 2023 by gehringer_2

[Deleterious]

Pretty sure me and Betrayer are related somehow.

The Cade bashing is crazy to me as well.  Yes he needs to improve and he will probably be the first to tell you that.  But he is a stud.  JEIII pointed out in his article today that last night was Cades 82nd game played.  He is still so young in terms of time played.

Regarding point #2 and what is so frustrating about it.  I feel Duren has the mobility to trap and switch.  So I don't really understand why they don't do it more.  Like Betrayer said, guys that cant do that do not play come playoff time.  So lets get him out there doing/learning it now.

It is getting pretty hard to pump the brakes on the Sasser hype train.  Not sure how Killian continues to start over him.

[Deleterious]

Luka and Embiid play with better talent than Cade does.  That means more made shots for those other two guys which obviously means more assists.  I like to look at the potential assist stat on NBA.com.  Cade is 12th in the league for potential assists.  He is also 7th in the league for secondary assists (hockey assist).  

[gehringer_2]

2 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Luka and Embiid play with better talent than Cade does.  That means more made shots for those other two guys which obviously means more assists.  I like to look at the potential assist stat on NBA.com.  Cade is 12th in the league for potential assists.  He is also 7th in the league for secondary assists (hockey assist).  

right - but all that said, he still has to give the ball up faster and then be more effective with the ball in someone else's hands because to keep repeating what happened last night is pointless for the team and Cade.

[RandyMarsh]

I know it's only been 9 games but could Sasser be legit and a key piece moving forward?

If so that would be huge and help offset Ivey's complete regression.

[Deleterious]

Another thing from that JEIII article. Sasser is a year older than Cade.

[Betrayer]

23 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Another thing from that JEIII article. Sasser is a year older than Cade.

It's even crazier than that. 9 people played last night. Sasser (age 23) was older than all of them except Bagley (24) and the two G-Leaguers (also 24).

[gehringer_2]

49 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Another thing from that JEIII article. Sasser is a year older than Cade.

Kelser was talking about that during the game - talking up the value of a 4yr college player.

[RandyMarsh]

It does kinda make sense to draft a 3 or 4 year starter in the mid to late 1st round. He may not have the higher upside of a raw 1 year kid but if he can contribute right away and throughout his rookie contract he will provide alot of excess value for you. OTOH if you take the raw player he may turn out to be the better player but it may not come to year 3 or 4 where you are then going to have to pay through the nose to keep him. 

[NYLion]

4 hours ago, Betrayer said:

I hear fans blaming Cade and that's just wild to me. The dude had 33, 8, and 8. It's his third 30 point game of this season already. He carried the team in the 2nd and 3rd quarter until Sasser came in and lit it up in the late 3rd and early 4th. Also, the idea posted here that Cade should've stayed on the bench in favor of Killian is just bonkers. If you want to know what actually happened to lose this game:

1. On defense the Buck went to an aggressive zone that we couldn't score against. Why? Because it meant multiple defenders on Cade or Sasser as soon as they dribbled past the three point line. With no respected shooters the spacing was terrible and even when Cade got it to an open man they missed it (3 times in the corner for Stew and once for Ausar). 

2. On offense the Bucks went to a high screen and roll with Dame and Lopez. We all know Lopez moves on every screen (not called) and if you touch Dame he throws his body into you and gets the call. But the bigger problem was the lack of adjustments from Monty - and this is the type of thing that Suns fans complained about. We continued to play drop coverage with Duren against the exact same offensive set over and over. Guess what? We got burned over and over because you can't play drop against Dame when he's cooking. He's either going to shoot an open three if the big drops too far or come at your big with a head of steam and get a foul call. You have to switch or trap the ball out of his hands and rotate defensively. That probably also means changing personnel to a faster lineup, which is how most big men get played off the court in the playoffs.

Sure, Cade needs to clean up the turnovers, but let's look at the big picture here:

Cade is currently 4th in usage across the entire NBA and averaging 5.4 turnovers (he had 5 last night). The other ball handler who's top 4 is Luka averaging 4.9 turnovers per game. The other two in the top 4 are big men and even they both average 3.7 (Giannis and Embiid). The 5th guy on the list? Durant averaging 4.3 per game.

So let's not act like Cade is that far off from those other high usage guys. Yes, you'd like him to cut it down by 1 or 1.5 per game, but he's also working with no spacing, getting multiple defenders every time he touches the ball, and has just played the 85th game of his entire career.

This loss was painful but Cade was actually one of the few bright spots, along with Sasser.

In regards to Giannis getting booted, I hear people calling it weak and I don't understand that. He dunked the ball and then took steps towards Stew while staring directly into his face standing 6" from him. That's a Technical Foul all day long and has been for years. If they didn't call a tech that would've been some serious star treatment. Maybe people are forgetting that Giannis already had one tech earlier in the game so this was his second of the night?

He had a lot of those numbers in the first 3 quarters. When he came in during the 4th and the ball was largely taken out of Sasser's hands, the team fell apart. It's not all on Cade but, again, he was loose with the ball and was making poor decisions overall. He's done this multiple times in the 4th quarter this season.

Of course it's not all his fault as guys (Stewart namely) missed some wide open shots but he needs to be held accountable for making mistakes with the ball fairly frequently with the game on the line.

With that said, he needs help. There's a lot of injuries and I think he feels the need to do too much which leads to these turnovers so there's probably a reason why he's pressing so much. Cade is going to be good eventually but he doesn't play efficient/winning basketball at this point in his career and I think it's something to be noted with him being the franchise player.

Edited November 9, 2023 by NYLion

[Deleterious]

Sounds like Ivey is out again Friday.

[Deleterious]

 

[buddha]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:20 AM, NYLion said:

Who did Milwaukee rest? Middleton is injured I believe and Giannis got himself kicked out of the game in the 3rd. Also, the Pistons have missed like 4-6 rotation players pretty much the entire season so it's hard to feel bad for other teams missing players.

cleveland sat donovan mitchell.  atlanta sat trae young.

teams are resting their best guys against the pistons and still beating them rather easily.