Week Thirteen: Detroit Lions (8-3) @ New Orleans Saints (5-6)

[1984Echoes]

35 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

They really don't even have an opportunity to evaluate Hooker before deciding on an extension with Goff. They didn't get a training camp with Hooker to evaluate him and now they'll go into the last season of Goff's contract so they'll have to make a huge decision based on one training camp with Hooker. 

Just give Goff his extension.

Worry about Hooker later.

He'll (Hooker) be a good backup for the next few years, not counting this one.

[Motown Bombers]

4 minutes ago, TP_Fan said:

People don’t go to the internet for positivity.

The irony, I’m a pretty positive person. I allow myself to be emotional over football. We need to look at this globally. 

Go look at Reddit or other forums, specific to the lions. People getting voted down to hell for saying there is too much negativity.  In person I only point out the positive.  Here, There is 3 hours to let loose and then get back to it.

For instance, I pointed out the defensive stats last week and key areas they needed to improve.  One of them was red zone td percentage.  Lions were 3rd to last in the league.  Saints came in as one of the worst red zone offenses and then went 4 for 4 after a game going 0 for 5.  The lions are allowing teams to convert 73% of their red zone trips to touchdowns, and it’s gotten progressively worse.  There is room for concern and the nuance is best left for middle of the week.

It’s obvious why there is angst, the lions are off to a historic start and have a legit shot a home playoff game.  The lions have lost 2 of their 3 games at home and were lucky not to lose to the bears. They have been worse defensively at home and haven’t shown improvement since the bye.  People don’t want to see the lions win the division and then have the same issues pop up, fans want to see improvement.  They get upset week to week seeing the same problems.  The red zone defense being of primary concern, even more than the turnovers for me.  I don’t believe they can play at this level of defense and then magically fix it during the playoff game.  
 

Lions are basically tanking out in bottom 3rd of every defensive catergoy and in the last half of games they are near the bottom in every category.  They still run base and nickel, rarely dime and don’t blitz more than middle of the pack, and usually with linebackers who can’t get home.

On to Chicago. 

You literally complain about every coordinator the Lions have ever had. It's just schtick at this point. 

[1984Echoes]

36 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Hopefully the Lions clinch early and they can throw Hooker out there in a game or two. 

Even if just for one quarter each.

However, if they were to do that... I think it'd be next year, not this year.

This year it'd be Bridgewater getting those quarters, because he's the one we need to have ready for the playoffs... just in case of injury.

[Motown Bombers]

Just now, 1984Echoes said:

Even if just for one quarter each.

However, if they were to do that... I think it'd be next year, not this year.

This year it'd be Bridgewater getting those quarters, because he's the one we need to have ready for the playoffs... just in case of injury.

If the Lions have everything wrapped up by the final game, I would just inactivate Goff and start Bridgewater for the 1st half and bring Hooker in for the 2nd half. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

The overall negativity is what wears on me, not singling out any one poster cause alot of people are like this, hell I'm guilty of it at times too but going through posts even after we win that are doom and gloom just gets tiresome to me. 

I don't expect every post to be a ra ra cheerleader post but jeez this is probably the best Lions team we've seen in decades yet instead of enjoying it its continuous posts about the flaws of the team.

Ffs can't we just have some positive posts that point out the things they did or are doing well? Or players that played well instead of just focusing on the guys or things that haven't been good?

I agree with this to a point. I think there some of us, myself included, who need to sit back a bit and just enjoy the ride and be happy more often. I am elated they are 9-3, I truly am. I am elated that, barring a complete meltdown over the next 5 weeks, we are going to win the NFC North for only the second time in my entire life. I haven't had this much fun watching the Lions since the 2014 season and before that, since Barry, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman, and Robert Porcher were around. I do believe in what Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell are doing, most of the time. I have a few criticisms of decisions they have or have not made. Campbell sometimes is overly aggressive when I don't want him to be. He seems to give Aaron Glenn a pass at times for this defense when I feel Glenn should take more heat. He doesn't force schematic changes to the defense when I think there need to be some. He also agrees with Brad Holmes on some of the personnel decision that haven't worked out just yet (Levi, Paschal, Martin). But all in all, I am beyond happy with the state of this franchise.

What needs to be understood though, and this is by no means a slight at you or anyone, is that when you get good, the bar has to be raised. With raised expectations comes raised criticisms. As well, a raised bar doesn't mean that all is well overall. A raised set of expectations means the things fans will critique and criticize is different than it was before. We criticized Russ Thomas, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes (Winningest coach in Lions history), Bobby Ross, Matt Millen, Martin Mayhew, Bob Quinn, Matt Patricia for rightly being downright awful at times or throughout the entirety of their tenures here. Campbell, Holmes, and company in no way deserve the kind of heat and level of criticism that say Matt Millen got.

One of the raised expectations that fans have is that we now not only win our division, but the expectation that we win the playoff game that we will host as well. On a side note, division winners should be granted a playoff birth. No one from the NFC South deserves to be in the playoffs this year as it stands now. So being the best of a very bad lot should not get you into the playoffs. Back on track though, winning a playoff game will be a key metric and measurement for this team and where we are truly at versus where we perceive we are at.

You mentioned negative fans and posters above. I've been one of those negative fans and posters along with a few others, when it comes to Aaron Glenn and this defense specifically for the past two seasons. The long and short of it is that many of us don't believe this defense is good enough to win us a playoff game. In-fact, we believe it is a liability that will cost us a game. This defense, on the whole, is a liability, and hurts our chances to win a playoff game. You can't keep asking this offense to carry the team every single week and go punch for punch with an opposing offense.

For example, if we had to play Seattle again, or any decent offense with an above average QB, which most all playoff teams have, it sure feels like we'd likely lose. Many fans have sat through years of one and done Lions teams in the playoffs and we want more than that. 1979, 1982, 1983, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2011, 2014, 2016 were all one and done Lions teams in the playoffs. The bar has been raised and many fans want more than that now. It doesn't matter if Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ray Agnew, John Dorsey, Aaron Glenn, Sheila Ford, whoever in this organization thinks we are ahead of the schedule they originally had us on. What matters is our window to be a contending team for an NFC Championship and ultimately a Super Bowl is now open. In the NFL, your window doesn't stay open forever and you have to take advantage of the times it does open up. No, that doesn't mean you sell the farm like the Rams and go all in for one season. Though, I'd take a Super Bowl, even if it only meant one year of success. Shooting for anything less than a Super Bowl is a complacent, losers mentality.

Right now, Aaron Glenn and this defense feel like a liability. It feels like they might be likely actively preventing us from winning a playoff game, let alone multiple playoff games, to be able to get to a Super Bowl. Some of the stats don't look all that bad on first glance. I believe we are 10th in defensive DVOA. We're also middle of the pack, not bottom tier, when it comes to total yards given up and yards per game. A big part of that is the very solid run defense that we have. Major props to Brad Holmes for the player acquisitions he's made to improve this run defense. Props to Aaron Glenn for the scheme and position he's put these guys in to be able to effectively stop the run as well.

But counter to that we're 12th from the bottom in total passing yards, we're bottom 10 in total points scored against. We're bottom 5-10 in blitz rate, win rate, QB pressures/hurries, total sacks and sacks per game as well. This seconday looks like a sieve at times. He has Jerry Jacobs out there in man coverage, with no safety help. Asking any CB, let alone a second string guy like Jacobs, to hold coverage for longer than 5 seconds is a problem. He needs reliable safety help over the top out there and shouldn't be on a coverage island by himself.

I also get it right, QB sacks and pressures don't paint a full picture and tell the full story about a team. Just look at a team like the Browns, great defense, mediocre offense, no QB, and a team that's on the downward trend. I'd rather be us, with our defense and a healthy QB, than them on the full decline with a QB out for the season.

Sacks and pressures are defensive stops though. Sacks and pressures create turnovers and stop drives. Sacks and pressures force punts. Sacks and pressures mean you disrupt plays and provide support for your secondary and LB'ers in coverage. You can't expect any secondary, no matter the talent level, to hold coverage for 5-6-7+ seconds. Any CB or S is going to get burnt or won't be able to contain tight coverage for that amount of time. I believe, and I think there are others who do as well, that this defense is a liability to us winning in the playoffs. We believe this because of our inability to pressure opposing QB, our poor coverage at times, and the scheme Glenn is employing by generally, only rushing 4.

Example, even though we won yesterday it felt extremely lucky. This defense got carved up in the second half. Yesterday, they allowed the Saints to march right back in and almost get the win. Had Derek Carr not gotten hurt and knocked out of the game, that sure feels like a loss for us. Jameis Winston is not an accurate or good QB. He had Chris Olave sitting in the middle of the field wide open and he didn't even look him off and make the throw late in the 4th quarter. That feels like a throw Carr would have made

The other thing that gets me and some other fans is the Aubrey Pleasant situation from last year. I'm not trying to manufacture consensus when I say this, but we were told last year it was incorrect and flat out wrong believe that Aubrey Pleasant was a scapegoat for the poor defensive performance. That indeed, it was wrong to blame Aaron Glenn for most or any of this defense's problems and that it was largely Pleasant's fault. Things did get better for a time after Pleasant was let go, but it feels like we have regressed back down. I don't think our inability to get after the QB, to generate pressure, to cover mobile QBs, or to hold coverage for 5+ seconds was/is Aubrey Pleasant's fault. I think that is the fault of the personnel they have (which injuries play a role in) and the defensive coaching staff up to and including Aaron Glenn.

In the end, the bar has been raised and there are different expectations from a year ago and from regimes of Lions teams past. I love where we are at as a franchise right now. I love Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson. I love Jared Goff, most weeks. I love Amon'Ra St. Brown, Sam Laporta, David Montgomery. Pennie Sewell, Frank Ragnow, Jonah Jackson. I love the players and weapons Brad Holmes has added on offense and what this coaching staff has done with them. Watching the Lions overall is incredibly fun. I do believe we are setup for years to come on offense. I do not feel that way yet about our defense. I do not feel that we yet have the right personnel and scheme to get us out of the first round of the playoffs. Maybe that all changes when James Houston comes back and we can generate more pass rush and pressure. Maybe it changes because some else steps up or Aaron Glenn makes adjustments. I'd really like to hope and think so. I'd really like to be proven wrong and for us to win a playoff game and make a run for it!

Edited December 5, 2023 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I agree with this to a point. I think there some of us, myself included, who need to sit back a bit and just enjoy the ride and be happy more often. I am elated they are 9-3, I truly am. I am elated that, barring a complete meltdown over the next 5 weeks, we are going to win the NFC North for only the second time in my entire life. I haven't had this much fun watching the Lions since the 2014 season and before that, since Barry, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman, and Robert Porcher were around. I do believe in what Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell are doing, most of the time. I have a few criticisms of decisions they have or have not made. Campbell sometimes is overly aggressive when I don't want him to be. He seems to give Aaron Glenn a pass at times for this defense when I feel Glenn should take more heat. He doesn't force schematic changes to the defense when I think there need to be some. He also agrees with Brad Holmes on some of the personnel decision that haven't worked out just yet (Levi, Paschal, Martin). But all in all, I am beyond happy with the state of this franchise.

What needs to be understood though, and this is by no means a slight at you or anyone, is that when you get good, the bar has to be raised. With raised expectations comes raised criticisms. As well, a raised bar doesn't mean that all is well overall. A raised set of expectations means the things fans will critique and criticize is different than it was before. We criticized Russ Thomas, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes (Winningest coach in Lions history), Bobby Ross, Matt Millen, Martin Mayhew, Bob Quinn, Matt Patricia for rightly being downright awful at times or throughout the entirety of their tenures here. Campbell, Holmes, and company in no way deserve the kind of heat and level of criticism that say Matt Millen got.

One of the raised expectations that fans have is that we now not only win our division, but the expectation that we win the playoff game that we will host as well. On a side note, division winners should be granted a playoff birth. No one from the NFC South deserves to be in the playoffs this year as it stands now. So being the best of a very bad lot should not get you into the playoffs. Back on track though, winning a playoff game will be a key metric and measurement for this team and where we are truly at versus where we perceive we are at.

You mentioned negative fans and posters above. I've been one of those negative fans and posters along with a few others, when it comes to Aaron Glenn and this defense specifically for the past two seasons. The long and short of it is that many of us don't believe this defense is good enough to win us a playoff game. In-fact, we believe it is a liability that will cost us a game. This defense, on the whole, is a liability, and hurts our chances to win a playoff game. You can't keep asking this offense to carry the team every single week and go punch for punch with an opposing offense.

For example, if we had to play Seattle again, or any decent offense with an above average QB, which most all playoff teams have, it sure feels like we'd likely lose. Many fans have sat through years of one and done Lions teams in the playoffs and we want more than that. 1979, 1982, 1983, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2011, 2014, 2016 were all one and done Lions teams in the playoffs. The bar has been raised and many fans want more than that now. It doesn't matter if Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ray Agnew, John Dorsey, Aaron Glenn, Sheila Ford, whoever in this organization thinks we are ahead of the schedule they originally had us on. What matters is our window to be a contending team for an NFC Championship and ultimately a Super Bowl is now open. In the NFL, your window doesn't stay open forever and you have to take advantage of the times it does open up. No, that doesn't mean you sell the farm like the Rams and go all in for one season. Though, I'd take a Super Bowl, even if it only meant one year of success. Shooting for anything less than a Super Bowl is a complacent, losers mentality.

Right now, Aaron Glenn and this defense feel like a liability. It feels like they might be likely actively preventing us from winning a playoff game, let alone multiple playoff games, to be able to get to a Super Bowl. Some of the stats don't look all that bad on first glance. I believe we are 10th in defensive DVOA. We're also middle of the pack, not bottom tier, when it comes to total yards given up and yards per game. A big part of that is the very solid run defense that we have. Major props to Brad Holmes for the player acquisitions he's made to improve this run defense. Props to Aaron Glenn for the scheme and position he's put these guys in to be able to effectively stop the run as well.

But counter to that we're 12th from the bottom in total passing yards, we're bottom 10 in total points scored against. We're bottom 5-10 in blitz rate, win rate, QB pressures/hurries, total sacks and sacks per game as well. This seconday looks like a sieve at times. He has Jerry Jacobs out there in man coverage, with no safety help. Asking any CB, let alone a second string guy like Jacobs, to hold coverage for longer than 5 seconds is a problem. He needs reliable safety help over the top out there and shouldn't be on a coverage island by himself.

I also get it right, QB sacks and pressures don't paint a full picture and tell the full story about a team. Just look at a team like the Browns, great defense, mediocre offense, no QB, and a team that's on the downward trend. I'd rather be us, with our defense and a healthy QB, than them on the full decline with a QB out for the season.

Sacks and pressures are defensive stops though. Sacks and pressures create turnovers and stop drives. Sacks and pressures force punts. Sacks and pressures mean you disrupt plays and provide support for your secondary and LB'ers in coverage. You can't expect any secondary, no matter the talent level, to hold coverage for 5-6-7+ seconds. Any CB or S is going to get burnt or won't be able to contain tight coverage for that amount of time. I believe, and I think there are others who do as well, that this defense is a liability to us winning in the playoffs. We believe this because of our inability to pressure opposing QB, our poor coverage at times, and the scheme Glenn is employing by generally, only rushing 4.

Example, even though we won yesterday it felt extremely lucky. This defense got carved up in the second half. Yesterday, they allowed the Saints to march right back in and almost get the win. Had Derek Carr not gotten hurt and knocked out of the game, that sure feels like a loss for us. Jameis Winston is not an accurate or good QB. He had Chris Olave sitting in the middle of the field wide open and he didn't even look him off and make the throw late in the 4th quarter. That feels like a throw Carr would have made

The other thing that gets me and some other fans is the Aubrey Pleasant situation from last year. I'm not trying to manufacture consensus when I say this, but we were told last year it was incorrect and flat out wrong believe that Aubrey Pleasant was a scapegoat for the poor defensive performance. That indeed, it was wrong to blame Aaron Glenn for most or any of this defense's problems and that it was largely Pleasant's fault. Things did get better for a time after Pleasant was let go, but it feels like we have regressed back down. I don't think our inability to get after the QB, to generate pressure, to cover mobile QBs, or to hold coverage for 5+ seconds was/is Aubrey Pleasant's fault. I think that is the fault of the personnel they have (which injuries play a role in) and the defensive coaching staff up to and including Aaron Glenn.

In the end, the bar has been raised and there are different expectations from a year ago and from regimes of Lions teams past. I love where we are at as a franchise right now. I love Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson. I love Jared Goff, most weeks. I love Amon'Ra St. Brown, Sam Laporta, David Montgomery. Pennie Sewell, Frank Ragnow, Jonah Jackson. I love the players and weapons Brad Holmes has added on offense and what this coaching staff has done with them. Watching the Lions overall is incredibly fun. I do believe we are setup for years to come on offense. I do not feel that way yet about our defense. I do not feel that we yet have the right personnel and scheme to get us out of the first round of the playoffs. Maybe that all changes when James Houston comes back and we can generate more pass rush and pressure. Maybe it changes because some else steps up or Aaron Glenn makes adjustments. I'd really like to hope and think so. I'd really like to be proven wrong and for us to win a playoff game and make a run for it!

Well, I didn't read all of this but I read something about Campbell putting heat on Glenn, what exactly does that entail? I trust Campbell on how to handle his coaches. 

[Mr.TaterSalad]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Well, I didn't read all of this but I read something about Campbell putting heat on Glenn, what exactly does that entail? I trust Campbell on how to handle his coaches. 

Before words get put in my mouth, I am not nor did I say the words fire Aaron Glenn or imply he needs to go ASAP. Putting more heat on the defense means a little more public criticism and a bit more pointing out where we can improve. I don't expect Campbell to go and throw a coach directly and publicly under the bus. But there are ways to show your public displeasure and need for improvement without doing that.

Two questions, do you think this defense, lead by Aaron Glenn, has been good on the whole this season? Also, do you trust this defense enough that we can win at least one playoff game?

[TP_Fan]

25 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

You literally complain about every coordinator the Lions have ever had. It's just schtick at this point. 

I’m pretty sure since I’ve been a lions fan the lions have never had a coordinator hired away to be a head coach.  Go one about how good the coordinators are though.  

[MichiganCardinal]

When I look at the defense, I don't think they're that far away from being very good, regardless of questions about Glenn and scheme.

On the line, Hutchinson, McNeill, Paschal, and Houston will likely be here and honestly make up a pretty good core. Martin too I guess. Cut weight with pretty much everybody else. We don't need Levi, the Okwaras, and Charles Harris wasting roster spots. Pick up an edge who can win a one-on-one battle in both free agency and the draft. The linebackers are largely set and should only improve as Campbell develops. In the secondary, Sutton, Branch, Walker, and Joseph will likely be here. Re-sign CJGJ to another one-year deal if he wants it and pick up a CB2 with two ACLs in free agency.

With just that, two free agents and one draft pick, I think the defense is somewhere in the good to great range, instead of watching Hutch get double teamed and a mediocre QB getting all day to find whoever Jerry Jacobs is supposed to be covering.

[Motown Bombers]

11 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

Before words get put in my mouth, I am not nor did I say the words fire Aaron Glenn or imply he needs to go ASAP. Putting more heat on the defense means a little more public criticism and a bit more pointing out where we can improve. I don't expect Campbell to go and throw a coach directly and publicly under the bus. But there are ways to show your public displeasure and need for improvement without doing that.

Two questions, do you think this defense, lead by Aaron Glenn, has been good on the whole this season? Also, do you trust this defense enough that we can win at least one playoff game?

This defense is better than the Eagles. Everyone thinks they can win a Super Bowl so yeah I think it's good enough. The Lions aren't going to win a playoff game because of their defense. 

I don't have strong feelings about Glenn. I think some public admonishment would do more harm than good and would just serve as red meat to fans. Dan Campbell's greatest skill is culture building and I trust his handling of Glenn. I don't think there is a good solution this year as there just aren't defensive coordinators available mid season and it's too late to change defensive schemes. I wouldn't be upset if the Lions and Glenn parted ways in the offseason. Campbell can recruit top defensive coaches because he has a culture where coaches aren't thrown under the bus publicly. 

[Jason_R]

Is Tolstoy posting here now? One of those posts was longer than War and Peace. 

[Jason_R]

What is the deal with fans who want to see players and coaches publicly humiliated or “taught a lesson”? It’s bizarre. 

[NYLion]

21 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Offensively the Eagles have scored two more points than the Lions and defensively have given up two more points than the Lions giving both teams the same differential. The narrative is the Eagles are so far ahead of the Lions despite being so similar. 

The Eagles have earned their rep as a SB participant just last season with pretty much the same team they have now while the Lions haven't won a playoff game yet so there's a reason why the Eagles get the benefit of the doubt in the comparison.

[Motown Bombers]

3 minutes ago, NYLion said:

The Eagles have earned their rep as a SB participant just last season with pretty much the same team they have now while the Lions haven't won a playoff game yet so there's a reason why the Eagles get the benefit of the doubt in the comparison.

The Eagles defense went from 8th last year to 24th this year and they just got smoked by the 49ers who actually had a healthy QB. The Eagles last year beat a weak Giants team and a 49ers without a healthy QB. I don't think they are as good as they are made out to be. I'm not sure the Lions beat them but they are a flawed team. 

[RandyMarsh]

I do feel like Glenn should blitz more, it may or may not work but I think it's atleast worth trying. 

With that said I also think given our injuries and youth that the defense doesn't have the best personnel, they may be a year away but at the moment I think you'd be hard pressed to bring in somebody that would be a whole lot better that's why I just don't go crazy with the Glenn hate even though I naturally wished the defense was better. 

[1984Echoes]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

If the Lions have everything wrapped up by the final game, I would just inactivate Goff and start Bridgewater for the 1st half and bring Hooker in for the 2nd half. 

That's a good plan.

I like it.

[MichiganCardinal]

16 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

I do feel like Glenn should blitz more, it may or may not work but I think it's atleast worth trying. 

With that said I also think given our injuries and youth that the defense doesn't have the best personnel, they may be a year away but at the moment I think you'd be hard pressed to bring in somebody that would be a whole lot better that's why I just don't go crazy with the Glenn hate even though I naturally wished the defense was better. 

It felt like he blitzed more than I ever remember when Winston entered the game. And it worked.

[KnoxP]

1 hour ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I agree with this to a point. I think there some of us, myself included, who need to sit back a bit and just enjoy the ride and be happy more often. I am elated they are 9-3, I truly am. I am elated that, barring a complete meltdown over the next 5 weeks, we are going to win the NFC North for only the second time in my entire life. I haven't had this much fun watching the Lions since the 2014 season and before that, since Barry, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman, and Robert Porcher were around. I do believe in what Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell are doing, most of the time. I have a few criticisms of decisions they have or have not made. Campbell sometimes is overly aggressive when I don't want him to be. He seems to give Aaron Glenn a pass at times for this defense when I feel Glenn should take more heat. He doesn't force schematic changes to the defense when I think there need to be some. He also agrees with Brad Holmes on some of the personnel decision that haven't worked out just yet (Levi, Paschal, Martin). But all in all, I am beyond happy with the state of this franchise.

What needs to be understood though, and this is by no means a slight at you or anyone, is that when you get good, the bar has to be raised. With raised expectations comes raised criticisms. As well, a raised bar doesn't mean that all is well overall. A raised set of expectations means the things fans will critique and criticize is different than it was before. We criticized Russ Thomas, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes (Winningest coach in Lions history), Bobby Ross, Matt Millen, Martin Mayhew, Bob Quinn, Matt Patricia for rightly being downright awful at times or throughout the entirety of their tenures here. Campbell, Holmes, and company in no way deserve the kind of heat and level of criticism that say Matt Millen got.

One of the raised expectations that fans have is that we now not only win our division, but the expectation that we win the playoff game that we will host as well. On a side note, division winners should be granted a playoff birth. No one from the NFC South deserves to be in the playoffs this year as it stands now. So being the best of a very bad lot should not get you into the playoffs. Back on track though, winning a playoff game will be a key metric and measurement for this team and where we are truly at versus where we perceive we are at.

You mentioned negative fans and posters above. I've been one of those negative fans and posters along with a few others, when it comes to Aaron Glenn and this defense specifically for the past two seasons. The long and short of it is that many of us don't believe this defense is good enough to win us a playoff game. In-fact, we believe it is a liability that will cost us a game. This defense, on the whole, is a liability, and hurts our chances to win a playoff game. You can't keep asking this offense to carry the team every single week and go punch for punch with an opposing offense.

For example, if we had to play Seattle again, or any decent offense with an above average QB, which most all playoff teams have, it sure feels like we'd likely lose. Many fans have sat through years of one and done Lions teams in the playoffs and we want more than that. 1979, 1982, 1983, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2011, 2014, 2016 were all one and done Lions teams in the playoffs. The bar has been raised and many fans want more than that now. It doesn't matter if Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ray Agnew, John Dorsey, Aaron Glenn, Sheila Ford, whoever in this organization thinks we are ahead of the schedule they originally had us on. What matters is our window to be a contending team for an NFC Championship and ultimately a Super Bowl is now open. In the NFL, your window doesn't stay open forever and you have to take advantage of the times it does open up. No, that doesn't mean you sell the farm like the Rams and go all in for one season. Though, I'd take a Super Bowl, even if it only meant one year of success. Shooting for anything less than a Super Bowl is a complacent, losers mentality.

Right now, Aaron Glenn and this defense feel like a liability. It feels like they might be likely actively preventing us from winning a playoff game, let alone multiple playoff games, to be able to get to a Super Bowl. Some of the stats don't look all that bad on first glance. I believe we are 10th in defensive DVOA. We're also middle of the pack, not bottom tier, when it comes to total yards given up and yards per game. A big part of that is the very solid run defense that we have. Major props to Brad Holmes for the player acquisitions he's made to improve this run defense. Props to Aaron Glenn for the scheme and position he's put these guys in to be able to effectively stop the run as well.

But counter to that we're 12th from the bottom in total passing yards, we're bottom 10 in total points scored against. We're bottom 5-10 in blitz rate, win rate, QB pressures/hurries, total sacks and sacks per game as well. This seconday looks like a sieve at times. He has Jerry Jacobs out there in man coverage, with no safety help. Asking any CB, let alone a second string guy like Jacobs, to hold coverage for longer than 5 seconds is a problem. He needs reliable safety help over the top out there and shouldn't be on a coverage island by himself.

I also get it right, QB sacks and pressures don't paint a full picture and tell the full story about a team. Just look at a team like the Browns, great defense, mediocre offense, no QB, and a team that's on the downward trend. I'd rather be us, with our defense and a healthy QB, than them on the full decline with a QB out for the season.

Sacks and pressures are defensive stops though. Sacks and pressures create turnovers and stop drives. Sacks and pressures force punts. Sacks and pressures mean you disrupt plays and provide support for your secondary and LB'ers in coverage. You can't expect any secondary, no matter the talent level, to hold coverage for 5-6-7+ seconds. Any CB or S is going to get burnt or won't be able to contain tight coverage for that amount of time. I believe, and I think there are others who do as well, that this defense is a liability to us winning in the playoffs. We believe this because of our inability to pressure opposing QB, our poor coverage at times, and the scheme Glenn is employing by generally, only rushing 4.

Example, even though we won yesterday it felt extremely lucky. This defense got carved up in the second half. Yesterday, they allowed the Saints to march right back in and almost get the win. Had Derek Carr not gotten hurt and knocked out of the game, that sure feels like a loss for us. Jameis Winston is not an accurate or good QB. He had Chris Olave sitting in the middle of the field wide open and he didn't even look him off and make the throw late in the 4th quarter. That feels like a throw Carr would have made

The other thing that gets me and some other fans is the Aubrey Pleasant situation from last year. I'm not trying to manufacture consensus when I say this, but we were told last year it was incorrect and flat out wrong believe that Aubrey Pleasant was a scapegoat for the poor defensive performance. That indeed, it was wrong to blame Aaron Glenn for most or any of this defense's problems and that it was largely Pleasant's fault. Things did get better for a time after Pleasant was let go, but it feels like we have regressed back down. I don't think our inability to get after the QB, to generate pressure, to cover mobile QBs, or to hold coverage for 5+ seconds was/is Aubrey Pleasant's fault. I think that is the fault of the personnel they have (which injuries play a role in) and the defensive coaching staff up to and including Aaron Glenn.

In the end, the bar has been raised and there are different expectations from a year ago and from regimes of Lions teams past. I love where we are at as a franchise right now. I love Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson. I love Jared Goff, most weeks. I love Amon'Ra St. Brown, Sam Laporta, David Montgomery. Pennie Sewell, Frank Ragnow, Jonah Jackson. I love the players and weapons Brad Holmes has added on offense and what this coaching staff has done with them. Watching the Lions overall is incredibly fun. I do believe we are setup for years to come on offense. I do not feel that way yet about our defense. I do not feel that we yet have the right personnel and scheme to get us out of the first round of the playoffs. Maybe that all changes when James Houston comes back and we can generate more pass rush and pressure. Maybe it changes because some else steps up or Aaron Glenn makes adjustments. I'd really like to hope and think so. I'd really like to be proven wrong and for us to win a playoff game and make a run for it!

Tater Salad, that took some time and it was clear.
I am fine w/fair minded criticism and increasing expectations.

All fair points devoid of the wild extremes and hyperbole.

👍

[Jason_R]

1 hour ago, NYLion said:

The Eagles have earned their rep as a SB participant just last season with pretty much the same team they have now while the Lions haven't won a playoff game yet so there's a reason why the Eagles get the benefit of the doubt in the comparison.

Philly is clearly weaker in the secondary this year without CJGJ. Detroit is also weak in the secondary without CJGJ. 

But SF had this game circled on their calendar. 

[NYLion]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

The Eagles defense went from 8th last year to 24th this year and they just got smoked by the 49ers who actually had a healthy QB. The Eagles last year beat a weak Giants team and a 49ers without a healthy QB. I don't think they are as good as they are made out to be. I'm not sure the Lions beat them but they are a flawed team. 

They're flawed particularly in the secondary but I'm just saying they get different treatment than the Lions because their group is established winners while the Lions are still in the "prove it" stage. Plus, they're just more talented overall and people believe in their talent.

[buddha]

5 hours ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I agree with this to a point. I think there some of us, myself included, who need to sit back a bit and just enjoy the ride and be happy more often. I am elated they are 9-3, I truly am. I am elated that, barring a complete meltdown over the next 5 weeks, we are going to win the NFC North for only the second time in my entire life. I haven't had this much fun watching the Lions since the 2014 season and before that, since Barry, Herman Moore, Brett Perriman, and Robert Porcher were around. I do believe in what Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell are doing, most of the time. I have a few criticisms of decisions they have or have not made. Campbell sometimes is overly aggressive when I don't want him to be. He seems to give Aaron Glenn a pass at times for this defense when I feel Glenn should take more heat. He doesn't force schematic changes to the defense when I think there need to be some. He also agrees with Brad Holmes on some of the personnel decision that haven't worked out just yet (Levi, Paschal, Martin). But all in all, I am beyond happy with the state of this franchise.

What needs to be understood though, and this is by no means a slight at you or anyone, is that when you get good, the bar has to be raised. With raised expectations comes raised criticisms. As well, a raised bar doesn't mean that all is well overall. A raised set of expectations means the things fans will critique and criticize is different than it was before. We criticized Russ Thomas, Darryl Rogers, Wayne Fontes (Winningest coach in Lions history), Bobby Ross, Matt Millen, Martin Mayhew, Bob Quinn, Matt Patricia for rightly being downright awful at times or throughout the entirety of their tenures here. Campbell, Holmes, and company in no way deserve the kind of heat and level of criticism that say Matt Millen got.

One of the raised expectations that fans have is that we now not only win our division, but the expectation that we win the playoff game that we will host as well. On a side note, division winners should be granted a playoff birth. No one from the NFC South deserves to be in the playoffs this year as it stands now. So being the best of a very bad lot should not get you into the playoffs. Back on track though, winning a playoff game will be a key metric and measurement for this team and where we are truly at versus where we perceive we are at.

You mentioned negative fans and posters above. I've been one of those negative fans and posters along with a few others, when it comes to Aaron Glenn and this defense specifically for the past two seasons. The long and short of it is that many of us don't believe this defense is good enough to win us a playoff game. In-fact, we believe it is a liability that will cost us a game. This defense, on the whole, is a liability, and hurts our chances to win a playoff game. You can't keep asking this offense to carry the team every single week and go punch for punch with an opposing offense.

For example, if we had to play Seattle again, or any decent offense with an above average QB, which most all playoff teams have, it sure feels like we'd likely lose. Many fans have sat through years of one and done Lions teams in the playoffs and we want more than that. 1979, 1982, 1983, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2011, 2014, 2016 were all one and done Lions teams in the playoffs. The bar has been raised and many fans want more than that now. It doesn't matter if Brad Holmes, Dan Campbell, Ray Agnew, John Dorsey, Aaron Glenn, Sheila Ford, whoever in this organization thinks we are ahead of the schedule they originally had us on. What matters is our window to be a contending team for an NFC Championship and ultimately a Super Bowl is now open. In the NFL, your window doesn't stay open forever and you have to take advantage of the times it does open up. No, that doesn't mean you sell the farm like the Rams and go all in for one season. Though, I'd take a Super Bowl, even if it only meant one year of success. Shooting for anything less than a Super Bowl is a complacent, losers mentality.

Right now, Aaron Glenn and this defense feel like a liability. It feels like they might be likely actively preventing us from winning a playoff game, let alone multiple playoff games, to be able to get to a Super Bowl. Some of the stats don't look all that bad on first glance. I believe we are 10th in defensive DVOA. We're also middle of the pack, not bottom tier, when it comes to total yards given up and yards per game. A big part of that is the very solid run defense that we have. Major props to Brad Holmes for the player acquisitions he's made to improve this run defense. Props to Aaron Glenn for the scheme and position he's put these guys in to be able to effectively stop the run as well.

But counter to that we're 12th from the bottom in total passing yards, we're bottom 10 in total points scored against. We're bottom 5-10 in blitz rate, win rate, QB pressures/hurries, total sacks and sacks per game as well. This seconday looks like a sieve at times. He has Jerry Jacobs out there in man coverage, with no safety help. Asking any CB, let alone a second string guy like Jacobs, to hold coverage for longer than 5 seconds is a problem. He needs reliable safety help over the top out there and shouldn't be on a coverage island by himself.

I also get it right, QB sacks and pressures don't paint a full picture and tell the full story about a team. Just look at a team like the Browns, great defense, mediocre offense, no QB, and a team that's on the downward trend. I'd rather be us, with our defense and a healthy QB, than them on the full decline with a QB out for the season.

Sacks and pressures are defensive stops though. Sacks and pressures create turnovers and stop drives. Sacks and pressures force punts. Sacks and pressures mean you disrupt plays and provide support for your secondary and LB'ers in coverage. You can't expect any secondary, no matter the talent level, to hold coverage for 5-6-7+ seconds. Any CB or S is going to get burnt or won't be able to contain tight coverage for that amount of time. I believe, and I think there are others who do as well, that this defense is a liability to us winning in the playoffs. We believe this because of our inability to pressure opposing QB, our poor coverage at times, and the scheme Glenn is employing by generally, only rushing 4.

Example, even though we won yesterday it felt extremely lucky. This defense got carved up in the second half. Yesterday, they allowed the Saints to march right back in and almost get the win. Had Derek Carr not gotten hurt and knocked out of the game, that sure feels like a loss for us. Jameis Winston is not an accurate or good QB. He had Chris Olave sitting in the middle of the field wide open and he didn't even look him off and make the throw late in the 4th quarter. That feels like a throw Carr would have made

The other thing that gets me and some other fans is the Aubrey Pleasant situation from last year. I'm not trying to manufacture consensus when I say this, but we were told last year it was incorrect and flat out wrong believe that Aubrey Pleasant was a scapegoat for the poor defensive performance. That indeed, it was wrong to blame Aaron Glenn for most or any of this defense's problems and that it was largely Pleasant's fault. Things did get better for a time after Pleasant was let go, but it feels like we have regressed back down. I don't think our inability to get after the QB, to generate pressure, to cover mobile QBs, or to hold coverage for 5+ seconds was/is Aubrey Pleasant's fault. I think that is the fault of the personnel they have (which injuries play a role in) and the defensive coaching staff up to and including Aaron Glenn.

In the end, the bar has been raised and there are different expectations from a year ago and from regimes of Lions teams past. I love where we are at as a franchise right now. I love Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson. I love Jared Goff, most weeks. I love Amon'Ra St. Brown, Sam Laporta, David Montgomery. Pennie Sewell, Frank Ragnow, Jonah Jackson. I love the players and weapons Brad Holmes has added on offense and what this coaching staff has done with them. Watching the Lions overall is incredibly fun. I do believe we are setup for years to come on offense. I do not feel that way yet about our defense. I do not feel that we yet have the right personnel and scheme to get us out of the first round of the playoffs. Maybe that all changes when James Houston comes back and we can generate more pass rush and pressure. Maybe it changes because some else steps up or Aaron Glenn makes adjustments. I'd really like to hope and think so. I'd really like to be proven wrong and for us to win a playoff game and make a run for it!

War and Peace by Tater.

[lordstanley]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

War and Peace by Tater.

Portrait of the Artist as a Lions Fan

[number20]

10 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Ya'll bitched when I tried to tell you how awesome Goff is. 

I remember that. You turned out to be right in the end. Goff's really been fantastic

[MichiganCardinal]

Lions have not lost while wearing their all-white uniforms since December 26, 2021.

Throwing that out there in case anyone from the Lions was planning ahead for a road playoff game.

[Tigeraholic1]

11 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Lions have not lost while wearing their all-white uniforms since December 26, 2021.

Throwing that out there in case anyone from the Lions was planning ahead for a road playoff game.

have you heard if they will wear the alternate helmet anymore this year?