NYLion Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) It's not an athleticism issue with Cade. Look at a lot of top players. Luka, Tatum, SGA, Booker, Banchero to use a Cade peer example and perhaps the most underrated player in the league in Brunson. The problem with Cade outside of the fact that he's not a true point guard and is getting deployed as one is the lack of spacing so he gets crowded a lot. Just watch last night when the Knicks were blitzing him in the 4th and he had to work his way around it. There's not one player in the starting lineup that is part of a defensive gameplan for the opponent so the onus is completely on Cade to create offense. There is some self improvement needed in his game but I don't think it's the lack of athleticism holding him back because he's crafty enough to get to his spots. It's the deployment and the supporting cast. There's only a select few players that can carry the entire weight of a franchise. Cade is just not on that level, he's not a Luka, he's not a Lebron that can carry a weak supporting cast. Look at the supporting cast of the guys above... Tatum has Brown, Holiday, White, Smart previously. SGA has/had Dort, Giddey, Williams, Chet now. Booker had CP3, Bridges etc. Banchero has Wagner (another supremely underrated player), Anthony, Suggs is coming into his own. Brunson has Randle, Barrett, Quickley Cade has Killian Hayes, the Isiah Plugs, rookie Ausar who can't hit the broad side of a barn with his shot and Duren who brings no creation to the table. Enough said really. It's hard to properly evaluate Cade until he has at least a few NBA level starters around him. Even 1 would be nice, he has zero currently. Edited December 1, 2023 by NYLion 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 i think athleticism is what keeps him from finishing at the rim regularly, getting calls, and playing better defense. but if he had superstar athleticism, he'd be a generational prospect. its ok that he doesnt. it wont keep him from being great. luka has the same issue but he's a tank and a dead eye shooter. cade is neither. tatum is a better athlete. sga is too. banchero is taller and a tank. look, this is picking nits. we all know the biggest issue with cade is exactly what you said and what everyone else has said about this team: no support. that and consistency in his shooting and turnovers. but i think that will come with a better cast around him. the bottom line is weaver has not provided him with a team built around cade. the more i look at the future, the more i see them trading ivey. duren can stay as a roll man for cade, that worked early in the year and can work moving forward. ivey is heading toward zach lavine empty calorie territory and if you can move him in a package for quality shooters or a big that can actually play defense you might be able to maximize cade. hopefully the next gm can make some moves to free up cade because i dont trust the current one to do it. weaver would draft saar, stretch bagley, re-sign wiseman, then stretch wiseman so he can trade for a backup point guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 I am more worried about Ivey right now than I am Cade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 did monty kill ivey? or can he just not function with cade dominating the ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleterious Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 Some Ivey stats I just pulled with and without Cade on the floor. TSA = True Shot Attempts PPP = points per possession PPS = points per shot PTSR = points per 100/pos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betrayer Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 I called it in my season preview, but now it's looking more and more real. Ivey will be gone before game 1 next year or sooner. Monty has decided to make him this team's Ayton. Listen to him after the game when he says "Hayes and Sasser are the best compliments to Cade out there". He even talked about Hayes' ability to "knock down shots"! Everyone in Phoenix said that Monty would come here and pick a baffling favorite player that he'll give way too many minutes too and have a grudge against a young talented prospect - sure enough, here we are. Just trade Ivey now because it's obvious where this is going and his value will only go down from here. Maybe use him in a package to get a 3&D wing for this starting lineup. Monty also continues to take the wrong people out of the starting lineup. We all know it should be Stew coming off the bench. He's a solid backup but not a starter in this league. He also helps Bagley a lot by adding some muscle and defense to that bench unit as we saw last night when they staggered him with the bench a bit. You also gain the option to use him as the backup Center in certain matchups to allow for more switching and to let Ausar play in the dunker spot without crowding the paint. Speaking of Ausar, he relegated to 13 minutes last night and still got 7 rebounds in that time. So, that's two top 5 picks that are now on Monty's bench. Can't wait until we collect another one this offseason. On Livers: Why do people like him? The answer is simple. Weaver has constructed a roster full of players who can either shoot the 3 or play D...nobody that can do both. Livers is the one guy that projects as even a mediocre 3&D player. That's how desperate we are for 3&D players in the lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 Starters and bench should be: starters: Sasser-Cade-Ausar-Livers-Duren bench: Hayes-Burks-(Harris or Knox or whomever is healthy)-Stew-Bagley At least until Bojan comes back. Then the starters are Sasser-Cade-Ausar-Bojan-Duren. With the only problem being the defensive hole that Bojan creates... That pushes Livers to the bench as... SF? Hayes-Burks-Livers-Stew-Bagley...? Just my 2 cents... But it also seems that Monty is just now starting to experiment with lineups since nothing has worked so far, so... hopefully he can get to the above conclusions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Betrayer said: I called it in my season preview, but now it's looking more and more real. Ivey will be gone before game 1 next year or sooner. Monty has decided to make him this team's Ayton. Listen to him after the game when he says "Hayes and Sasser are the best compliments to Cade out there". He even talked about Hayes' ability to "knock down shots"! Everyone in Phoenix said that Monty would come here and pick a baffling favorite player that he'll give way too many minutes too and have a grudge against a young talented prospect - sure enough, here we are. Just trade Ivey now because it's obvious where this is going and his value will only go down from here. Maybe use him in a package to get a 3&D wing for this starting lineup. Monty also continues to take the wrong people out of the starting lineup. We all know it should be Stew coming off the bench. He's a solid backup but not a starter in this league. He also helps Bagley a lot by adding some muscle and defense to that bench unit as we saw last night when they staggered him with the bench a bit. You also gain the option to use him as the backup Center in certain matchups to allow for more switching and to let Ausar play in the dunker spot without crowding the paint. Speaking of Ausar, he relegated to 13 minutes last night and still got 7 rebounds in that time. So, that's two top 5 picks that are now on Monty's bench. Can't wait until we collect another one this offseason. On Livers: Why do people like him? The answer is simple. Weaver has constructed a roster full of players who can either shoot the 3 or play D...nobody that can do both. Livers is the one guy that projects as even a mediocre 3&D player. That's how desperate we are for 3&D players in the lineup. Bigs and 3 or Ds. That defines the current Pistons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Starters and bench should be: starters: Sasser-Cade-Ausar-Livers-Duren bench: Hayes-Burks-(Harris or Knox or whomever is healthy)-Stew-Bagley At least until Bojan comes back. Then the starters are Sasser-Cade-Ausar-Bojan-Duren. With the only problem being the defensive hole that Bojan creates... That pushes Livers to the bench as... SF? Hayes-Burks-Livers-Stew-Bagley...? Just my 2 cents... But it also seems that Monty is just now starting to experiment with lineups since nothing has worked so far, so... hopefully he can get to the above conclusions... Ivey has to be in there somewhere, doesn't he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 I must be Monty or something... I've totally forgotten about Ivey. He's probably a lot better than Hayes... on offense. But apparently, since he's not playing much D (in Monty's eyes), Monty has Hayes above him. I think Ivey should be the bench PG ahead of Hayes; but I will agree with Monty here that Ivey has to make enough of an effort on D to earn that spot ahead of Hayes. I guess I'm giving Monty the benefit of the doubt... For now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 Just now, casimir said: Ivey has to be in there somewhere, doesn't he? I just caught myself on that... 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) Dysfunctional Bigs, and 3-OR-D's... Weaver's specialties... Edited December 1, 2023 by 1984Echoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: I just caught myself on that... 😉 Dude..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 1, 2023 Share Posted December 1, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Betrayer said: I called it in my season preview, but now it's looking more and more real. Ivey will be gone before game 1 next year or sooner. Monty has decided to make him this team's Ayton. Listen to him after the game when he says "Hayes and Sasser are the best compliments to Cade out there". He even talked about Hayes' ability to "knock down shots"! Everyone in Phoenix said that Monty would come here and pick a baffling favorite player that he'll give way too many minutes too and have a grudge against a young talented prospect - sure enough, here we are. Just trade Ivey now because it's obvious where this is going and his value will only go down from here. Maybe use him in a package to get a 3&D wing for this starting lineup. Monty also continues to take the wrong people out of the starting lineup. We all know it should be Stew coming off the bench. He's a solid backup but not a starter in this league. He also helps Bagley a lot by adding some muscle and defense to that bench unit as we saw last night when they staggered him with the bench a bit. You also gain the option to use him as the backup Center in certain matchups to allow for more switching and to let Ausar play in the dunker spot without crowding the paint. Speaking of Ausar, he relegated to 13 minutes last night and still got 7 rebounds in that time. So, that's two top 5 picks that are now on Monty's bench. Can't wait until we collect another one this offseason. On Livers: Why do people like him? The answer is simple. Weaver has constructed a roster full of players who can either shoot the 3 or play D...nobody that can do both. Livers is the one guy that projects as even a mediocre 3&D player. That's how desperate we are for 3&D players in the lineup. Sounds like the blind leading the blind. Monty has coached successful teams, you'd like to believe that was more than just lucking into so much talent he couldn't screw it up, but in basketball you can never ignore that possibility. Edited December 1, 2023 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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