HOF Ballots

[CMRivdogs]

They’ve just released a couple of Old Timers categories. Some interesting names….

From the “early era” there is no reason why Buck O’Neil shouldn’t be inducted. I realize a lot of his fame was from the Ken Burns series, but his work on the Negro Hall of Fame alone should put him in.

Back when I was playing a lot of retro APBA draft leagues Lefty O’Doul always killed me.

Would love to see Gil Hodges and Billy Pierce get in. My one sentimental favorite is Danny Murtaugh

 

[Jim Cowan]

Has to be Dick Allen, finally, by now?

[chasfh]

I'll bet on Bill Dahlen and Gil Hodges, the former because of the numbers, the latter because of New York heart over head.

Edited November 5, 2021 by chasfh

[Jim Cowan]

For the early era it's Buck O'Neil all the way for the reasons cited by Riv above and because Joe Posnanski was writing about Buck O'Neil, a friend, long ago.

[Tiger337]

16 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

Has to be Dick Allen, finally, by now?

Allen's stats amaze me every time I look them up.  

[CMRivdogs]

Allen was never liked by the sports writers. He does belong in the Hall

[Jim Cowan]

One year in the early 2000's Allen was being considered by the old-style Veterans Committee, which included Al Kaline.  Al Oliver ended up getting more votes than Allen.  I would love to have heard Kaline explain that one.

 

[casimir]

Its a damn shame O'Neill wasn't inducted when alive.  That'd have been a wonderful speech.  The man was a fantastic orator.  He could probably hold the room mesmerized by just reading a label on a can of soup.

Edited November 5, 2021 by casimir

[Tiger337]

Dick Allen had a 156 OPS+. That is 20th on the all-time list for players with 4000 or more plate appearances. He is just ahead of Aaron, Mays and DiMaggio at 155. https://stathead.com/baseball/season_finder.cgi?request=1&match=career&order_by_asc=0&order_by=onbase_plus_slugging_plus&qualifiers=nomin&minpasVal=3000&mingamesVal=1000&year_min=1871&year_max=2021&exactness=anymarked&games_min_max=min&ccomp[1]=gt&cval[1]=4000&cstat[1]=PA&age_min=0&age_max=99&season_start=1&season_end=-1&location=pob&locationMatch=is&isHOF=either

[Jim Cowan]

The 1968 Phillies are my favourite Dick Allen team.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1968.shtml

Take a look at that lineup, there's Allen with a 160 OPS plus, with no help whatsoever from the rest of that putrid lineup except Johnny Callison.  That's the Year of the Pitcher, Allen has 33 home runs and the sportswriter of the day would have said didn't hit .300 and didn't drive in 100 runs.  100 RBI?  On that team?

I remember a couple of newspaper articles from back then that said "Dick Allen struck out in the 8th, trying to hit a game-tying home run" and being 16 or so thinking what a selfish bastard, just get on base.  It wasn't until a few years later that I realized what everyone on both teams knew:  if he didn't hit a home run in that situation, the Phillies would lose, guaranteed.  Naturally the K's went up and the OBP went down.

He also was the first guy that I ever heard of against whom a 4-man outfield was used, with the thinking being that if we hold him to a single the rest of those guys won't be able to get him around.

Just a wonderful, wonderful player.  Apparently Bill James doesn't like him for some reason?  Bill James can kiss my ***.  There is also some nonsense about him "quitting on his team" when he left early out of absolute frustration with the team and its racist fans who of course booed him incessantly.  Just put the guy in, like they should have done while he was still alive.

[Tiger337]

8 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

The 1968 Phillies are my favourite Dick Allen team.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1968.shtml

Take a look at that lineup, there's Allen with a 160 OPS plus, with no help whatsoever from the rest of that putrid lineup except Johnny Callison.  That's the Year of the Pitcher, Allen has 33 home runs and the sportswriter of the day would have said didn't hit .300 and didn't drive in 100 runs.  100 RBI?  On that team?

I remember a couple of newspaper articles from back then that said "Dick Allen struck out in the 8th, trying to hit a game-tying home run" and being 16 or so thinking what a selfish bastard, just get on base.  It wasn't until a few years later that I realized what everyone on both teams knew:  if he didn't hit a home run in that situation, the Phillies would lose, guaranteed.  Naturally the K's went up and the OBP went down.

He also was the first guy that I ever heard of against whom a 4-man outfield was used, with the thinking being that if we hold him to a single the rest of those guys won't be able to get him around.

Just a wonderful, wonderful player.  Apparently Bill James doesn't like him for some reason?  Bill James can kiss my ***.  There is also some nonsense about him "quitting on his team" when he left early out of absolute frustration with the team and its racist fans who of course booed him incessantly.  Just put the guy in, like they should have done while he was still alive.

I remember growing up hearing only bad things about Allen.  Later, I read Bill James trashing him.  That was surprising since James is usually contrarian.  The truth is Allen's teammates had no problem with him and it was management and media that didn't like him.  He belongs in the HoF.  

[buddha]

as more of a "small hall" kind of guy, i would only really consider dick allen and minnie minoso from that group.

but heck, if they let jack morris in, what's the argument against jim kaat?  they're pretty similar guys.

[buddha]

honestly, harold baines is in the hall of fame, you might as well let everyone in now.

[RandyMarsh]

I always been of the mindset of peak over career totals. If at one point you were considered the best at your position and/or top 5 player in the league for atleast a handful of years you should be in regardless of how you aged(extreme examples aside).

That's why I was so upset with Johan Santana being knocked off the ballot his first year. He was the defacto best pitcher in baseball for 6 or 7 years, to me that is more worthy than a really good player compiling stats for a bunch of years. 

[SoCalTiger]

"Call me Dick" Allen was great and a bad *** to boot.

[Jim Cowan]

39 minutes ago, buddha said:

honestly, harold baines is in the hall of fame, you might as well let everyone in now.

Harold Baines lol, a DH with a career OPS+ of 121.  It's funny, I mentioned Johnny Callison earlier, no one has ever heard of him, he played 16 years with an OPS+ of 115, played good defense in right field, good arm and could run the bases.  Should he be in the Hall?  Ha ha of course not.  Was he a better player than Harold Baines?  He, and legions of others.

[casimir]

12 hours ago, buddha said:

honestly, harold baines is in the hall of fame, you might as well let everyone in now.

Dick Allen just needs Drunk Uncle Tony to speak well on his behalf.

[casimir]

12 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

I always been of the mindset of peak over career totals. If at one point you were considered the best at your position and/or top 5 player in the league for atleast a handful of years you should be in regardless of how you aged(extreme examples aside).

That's why I was so upset with Johan Santana being knocked off the ballot his first year. He was the defacto best pitcher in baseball for 6 or 7 years, to me that is more worthy than a really good player compiling stats for a bunch of years. 

I like looking at JAWS for that peak performance.  A seven year window doesn't necessarily apply for all, but it seems a reasonable approximation.

[Tiger337]

14 hours ago, buddha said:

honestly, harold baines is in the hall of fame, you might as well let everyone in now.

My criterion is if a player is comparable to or better than half the players in the HoF at his position, then he belongs.  

[Tenacious D]

Would have liked to see Bill Freehan in the Golden Days group.

[sabretooth]

Dick Allen clearly belongs.  Sounds like Al Kaline and others didn't like the cut of his jib or some other BS.

Boyer is borderline.

Hodges and Kaat had impressive careers but fall well short of the HoF standards for their positions.

Just shocking how great Roger Maris was for two seasons, and how so-so he was for the rest of his career.  Kind of the Brady Anderson of his day.

[sabretooth]

16 hours ago, buddha said:

honestly, harold baines is in the hall of fame, you might as well let everyone in now.

Well, Gil Hodges at least.

[buddha]

4 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Dick Allen clearly belongs.  Sounds like Al Kaline and others didn't like the cut of his jib or some other BS.

Boyer is borderline.

Hodges and Kaat had impressive careers but fall well short of the HoF standards for their positions.

Just shocking how great Roger Maris was for two seasons, and how so-so he was for the rest of his career.  Kind of the Brady Anderson of his day.

you know, it is possible that dick allen was a colossal jerk and a lot of people took offense to him AND he still merits hall of fame consideration.

i'm not sure the revisionist history around allen as some sort of misunderstood individualistic anti-hero is totally true.

that said, i'd probably put him in.  his numbers merit it.

[Tenacious D]

21 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Just shocking how great Roger Maris was for two seasons, and how so-so he was for the rest of his career.  Kind of the Brady Anderson of his day.

Maris was a steroid user, too?

[sabretooth]

18 minutes ago, buddha said:

you know, it is possible that dick allen was a colossal jerk and a lot of people took offense to him AND he still merits hall of fame consideration.

i'm not sure the revisionist history around allen as some sort of misunderstood individualistic anti-hero is totally true.

that said, i'd probably put him in.  his numbers merit it.

I honestly have no idea about him, other than the numbers on the page....they say "HoF", but maybe he shot himself in the foot personality-wise....dunno, don't really care, though obviously behind-the-scenes stuff can break a guy's reputation with his peers.

His accomplishments certainly merit the Hall....