HOF Ballots

[sabretooth]

10 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Maris was a steroid user, too?

Yeah...LOL...greenies were the weapon of choice then, amirite?

[Tiger337]

13 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Maris was a steroid user, too?

No reason why not.  

[Tiger337]

4 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Yeah...LOL...greenies were the weapon of choice then, amirite?

Steroids were around back then too, just not as strong as today.  

[Tiger337]

Another thing similar between the 90s "PED era" and the early 60s was rapid expansion.     

[Dan Gilmore]

I am in favor of keeping Allen out of the HofGP, the Hall of Great Personalities.

And in the HofF.

[sabretooth]

14 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Steroids were around back then too, just not as strong as today.  

Yeah, testosterone enhancements have been around forever...Ruth was rumored to have tried animal derivatives....I guess Mantle used something including amphetamines and artificial testosterone in 1961...by 1987 roids were at a different level from what I understand, whereas amphetamines had been more the weapon of choice in the 1960s.

[Jim Cowan]

42 minutes ago, buddha said:

you know, it is possible that dick allen was a colossal jerk and a lot of people took offense to him AND he still merits hall of fame consideration.

i'm not sure the revisionist history around allen as some sort of misunderstood individualistic anti-hero is totally true.

that said, i'd probably put him in.  his numbers merit it.

I don't think so.  I still have stuff from The Sporting News in the 1970's stuck in my head, and there was an outstanding young outfield prospect for the Pirates named Mitchell Page who, during spring training, got traded to the A's.  Disappointed and upset he went to Willie Stargell, the father figure for the Pirates and the entire National League, and asked "who do I go to for advice?"  Stargell's reply was "you can go to Dick".  There it is, Dick Allen being endorsed by Stargell, right there in print in the most influential baseball publication.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

you know, it is possible that dick allen was a colossal jerk and a lot of people took offense to him AND he still merits hall of fame consideration.

i'm not sure the revisionist history around allen as some sort of misunderstood individualistic anti-hero is totally true.

that said, i'd probably put him in.  his numbers merit it.

Allen was difficult for some people to get along with.  Ted Williams, Ty Cobb and  Rogers Hornsby were too.  The question is whether they hurt their teams.    I also question whether Allen was disliked because he was an outspoken black man and whether he would have received the same criticism if he were white.  

Edited November 6, 2021 by Tiger337

[sabretooth]

7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Allen was difficult for some people to get along with.  Ted Williams, Ty Cobb and  Rogers Hornsby were too.  The question is whether they hurt their teams.    I also question whether Allen was disliked because he was an outspoken black man and whether he would have received the same criticism if he were white.  

Good point.

[sabretooth]

42 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

Another thing similar between the 90s "PED era" and the early 60s was rapid expansion.     

Right.....I was poking around and didn't realize that Joe Morgan had been with Houston for a number of years before joining the Reds. 

The Colt 45s/Astros also had a guy by the name of Jim Wynn who had a very impressive career, borderline HoF numbers, 55 WAR, almost 300 HRs, 129 OPS+ for his career, and respectable JAWS scores. 

Between the ages of 23 and 33, he had 8 out of 11 seasons with 4.7 WAR or better, and three seasons with over 7 WAR.

He "only" had 1665 hits, but had an incredible 1224 walks, with a career on-base of .366.

Even though he played a lot of CF, he had more HR than doubles, and almost as many walks as strikeouts.

Fascinating that I never heard of him.

[Jim Cowan]

15 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

Right.....I was poking around and didn't realize that Joe Morgan had been with Houston for a number of years before joining the Reds. 

The Colt 45s/Astros also had a guy by the name of Jim Wynn who had a very impressive career, borderline HoF numbers, 55 WAR, almost 300 HRs, 129 OPS+ for his career, and respectable JAWS scores. 

Between the ages of 23 and 33, he had 8 out of 11 seasons with 4.7 WAR or better, and three seasons with over 7 WAR.

He "only" had 1665 hits, but had an incredible 1224 walks, with a career on-base of .366.

Even though he played a lot of CF, he had more HR than doubles, and almost as many walks as strikeouts.

Fascinating that I never heard of him.

Jimmy Wynn was "The Toy Cannon" because he was so small but hit so many home runs.

[oblong]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Right.....I was poking around and didn't realize that Joe Morgan had been with Houston for a number of years before joining the Reds. 

The Colt 45s/Astros also had a guy by the name of Jim Wynn who had a very impressive career, borderline HoF numbers, 55 WAR, almost 300 HRs, 129 OPS+ for his career, and respectable JAWS scores. 

Between the ages of 23 and 33, he had 8 out of 11 seasons with 4.7 WAR or better, and three seasons with over 7 WAR.

He "only" had 1665 hits, but had an incredible 1224 walks, with a career on-base of .366.

Even though he played a lot of CF, he had more HR than doubles, and almost as many walks as strikeouts.

Fascinating that I never heard of him.

I knew who he was because I used to have this “greatest home runs of all time” VHS tape.  Made around 1990.  One that they showed was Wynn hitting one in Corsley field out onto the freeway. It was that late 60’s era where video quality was sketchy.  

[Tiger337]

I hated Jim Wynn and his nickname.  My best friend was a Dodgers fan and he used to tease me about how bad the Tigers were in 74,75.  So, I hated Wynn, Lasorda, Garvey, Lopes, Cey and Yeager and all those bastards!  

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, sabretooth said:

Right.....I was poking around and didn't realize that Joe Morgan had been with Houston for a number of years before joining the Reds. 

 

That Joe Morgan trade was huge for the Reds!

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

That Joe Morgan trade was huge for the Reds!

I didn't bother to check to see what the trade was… do you happen to know what the Reds gave up?

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

I hated Jim Wynn and his nickname.  My best friend was a Dodgers fan and he used to tease me about how bad the Tigers were in 74,75.  So, I hated Wynn, Lasorda, Garvey, Lopes, Cey and Yeager and all those bastards!  

 I'm a numbers guy and I think fairly objective but I absolutely love when fans have irrational hatred for players and teams.... It's the spice of sports fandom

[Tiger337]

14 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I didn't bother to check to see what the trade was… do you happen to know what the Reds gave up?

November 29, 1971: Traded by the Houston Astros with Ed Armbrister, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo and Denis Menke to the Cincinnati Reds for Tommy Helms, Lee May and Jimmy Stewart.

So the Reds got the best player in baseball, a pretty good starter and a starting center fielder for May (2-3 win player) and Helms (1-2 win player).  

 

[Tiger337]

21 minutes ago, sabretooth said:

I didn't bother to check to see what the trade was… do you happen to know what the Reds gave up?

I still don't like the Dodgers.  

[CMRivdogs]

3 hours ago, Jim Cowan said:

I don't think so.  I still have stuff from The Sporting News in the 1970's stuck in my head, and there was an outstanding young outfield prospect for the Pirates named Mitchell Page who, during spring training, got traded to the A's.  Disappointed and upset he went to Willie Stargell, the father figure for the Pirates and the entire National League, and asked "who do I go to for advice?"  Stargell's reply was "you can go to Dick".  There it is, Dick Allen being endorsed by Stargell, right there in print in the most influential baseball publication.

Mitchell Page brings back a couple of memories. The Pirates Carolina League club in Salem, Va had a stocked team. Page, Miguel Dilone and a young kid who was going to be the next Clemente, Or at least give Dave Parker a challenge named Alfredo Edmead. Unfortunately  Eadmead dove for a short pop fly and slammed into the knee of the second baseman. The kid was killed almost instantly, it was late in the season. It took me a while before I went to another game.

A couple of other Major Leaguers from that team. John Candearia and Steve Nicosia.

Edited November 6, 2021 by CMRivdogs

[Jim Cowan]

10 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

Mitchell Page brings back a couple of memories. The Pirates Carolina League club in Salem, Va had a stocked team. Page, Miguel Dilone and a young kid who was going to be the next Clemente, Or at least give Dave Parker a challenge named Alfredo Edmead. Unfortunately  Eadmead dove for a short pop fly and slammed into the knee of the second baseman. The kid was killed almost instantly, it was late in the season. It took me a while before I went to another game.

A couple of other Major Leaguers from that team. John Candearia and Steve Nicosia.

I remember that from The Sporting News too.

[CMRivdogs]

I came across this article in SI. I had the pleasure of hanging out with the team the biggest part of the 1975 season. I got to know Pablo Cruz a bit, great guy. Pablo Cruz was still with the team, his kids were young…Dan Kinder was the GM. I remember the night John Candelaria made his ML debut. Dan and I listened to the game in my Pinto..

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/18/alfredo-edmead-jr-pablo-cruz-life-after-death-daily-cover

[sabretooth]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

November 29, 1971: Traded by the Houston Astros with Ed Armbrister, Jack Billingham, Cesar Geronimo and Denis Menke to the Cincinnati Reds for Tommy Helms, Lee May and Jimmy Stewart.

So the Reds got the best player in baseball, a pretty good starter and a starting center fielder for May (2-3 win player) and Helms (1-2 win player).  

 

What were they smoking in Houston

[CMRivdogs]

A lot of folks thought Houston got the best of the deal at the time. Tommy Helms was an All Star, Lee May was one of the league’s premier power hitters. Morgan was considered a troubled maker by his manager Harry “The Hat” Walker. I don’t think Geronimo had come into his own then. 
 

Sometimes it takes a manager like Sparky
 

 

[Tiger337]

3 minutes ago, CMRivdogs said:

A lot of folks thought Houston got the best of the deal at the time. Tommy Helms was an All Star, Lee May was one of the league’s premier power hitters. Morgan was considered a troubled maker by his manager Harry “The Hat” Walker. I don’t think Geronimo had come into his own then. 
 

Sometimes it takes a manager like Sparky
 

 

Right, it was not regarded as lopsided when it was made.  Looking back though, I think May and Helms were overrated and would not be as highly regarded by today's metrics.  And Morgan was a star in Houston by today's metrics although there was no way of knowing how great he would become in Cincinnati.  I still say he was the most exciting player I have seen in his prime.  He could do everything.  He was Mike Trout with style.  

[Jim Cowan]

2 hours ago, CMRivdogs said:

I came across this article in SI. I had the pleasure of hanging out with the team the biggest part of the 1975 season. I got to know Pablo Cruz a bit, great guy. Pablo Cruz was still with the team, his kids were young…Dan Kinder was the GM. I remember the night John Candelaria made his ML debut. Dan and I listened to the game in my Pinto..

https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/18/alfredo-edmead-jr-pablo-cruz-life-after-death-daily-cover

That's a great article.  Here are the 1974 Salem Pirates:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=a5fe3f71 

Look at the all around production from Edmead, the youngest guy in the league.  Hard not to think about the career he might have had.