HOF Ballots

[Tiger337]

55 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said:

That's a great article.  Here are the 1974 Salem Pirates:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=a5fe3f71 

Look at the all around production from Edmead, the youngest guy in the league.  Hard not to think about the career he might have had.

That's a sad story.  It sounds as Edmead was a budding star.  

[sabretooth]

13 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Right, it was not regarded as lopsided when it was made.  Looking back though, I think May and Helms were overrated and would not be as highly regarded by today's metrics.  And Morgan was a star in Houston by today's metrics although there was no way of knowing how great he would become in Cincinnati.  I still say he was the most exciting player I have seen in his prime.  He could do everything.  He was Mike Trout with style.  

To temper my critique, I could certainly see the huge interest in Lee May, who was an outstanding power hitter in his prime.  

And Morgan didnt have the head-turning stats at the time of the trade, turning on the power and average hitting after he joined the Reds at age 28.

Incredibly, Morgan amassed 27 WAR with Houston by age 27, which is good, but he added over 70 WAR afterwards in the ensuing 13 years, playing as a regular with over 500 PAs almost every season through the age of 40, with an OPS+ over 100 every year, way more BB than Ks, and a WAR of 2.1 or better in 11 of those 13 seasons....including a 5.1 WAR at the age of 38 with the Giants in 1982.

[oblong]

In Bouton's book he played with Morgan in Houston after he was traded there by the Pilots.  He referenced a story where Pete Rose was thrown out sliding at the plate.  He came back to the dugout and said "If I was black I'd have been safe."  Morgan said "If you were black you wouldn't have needed to slide"

 

[Useful Idiot]

So I read where Prince Fielder and Joe Nathan are both eligible this year?

 

What do you think guys?  Fielder for "I protected a Triple Crown winner in the lineup"?  That's a form of fame....😳

[RatkoVarda]

Career HRs Prince Fielder: 319

Career HRs Cecil Fielder: 319

[Useful Idiot]

Yeah, but Prince got that notorious triple in the ASG.  "Notorious" is fame, right?😛

 

And, how many belly flops is Cecil famous for?

Edited November 22, 2021 by Useful Idiot

[oblong]

 Jayson Stark brought up the 2008 Phillies and asking if they will have a hall of famer.  What about Chase Utley?  I’m listening. He started late. But damn he had a nice stretch. 

[RandyMarsh]

8 minutes ago, oblong said:

 Jayson Stark brought up the 2008 Phillies and asking if they will have a hall of famer.  What about Chase Utley?  I’m listening. He started late. But damn he had a nice stretch. 

Utley is definitely one of those guys that me personally would strongly consider. He was an elite player for several years and for atleast 5 years was the consensus best player at his position.  Had a 5 year peak where he averaged over 7 WAR a season.  

If you're like me who cares more about peak than overall numbers he is definitely worthy. 

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, RandyMarsh said:

Utley is definitely one of those guys that me personally would strongly consider. He was an elite player for several years and for atleast 5 years was the consensus best player at his position.  Had a 5 year peak where he averaged over 7 WAR a season.  

If you're like me who cares more about peak than overall numbers he is definitely worthy. 

Couldn’t the same be said about Kinsler?  He was borderline until he hit a wall with us.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

 Jayson Stark brought up the 2008 Phillies and asking if they will have a hall of famer.  What about Chase Utley?  I’m listening. He started late. But damn he had a nice stretch. 

I think he's got a decent chance.  He was elite for five years and had enough pretty good years around that to give him some longevity.  On the other hand, he looks similar to Grich who never got in.  Grich was better.   

[Tiger337]

34 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Couldn’t the same be said about Kinsler?  He was borderline until he hit a wall with us.

Utley was better.  His top five years were amazing.  

 

[SoCalTiger]

2 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Utley was better.  His top five years were amazing.  

 

Only after Lou.

[buddha]

not much difference between ryne sandberg and chase utley, other than sandberg got gold gloves and utley didnt.

[Motor City Sonics]

Do the writers relent and let Bonds and Clemens in on the last shot?     Schilling had a nice career, but he's borderline.   Never won a Cy Young.  My guess is that like Jack Morris, he'll get in later.    

Sad thing is that Bonds and Clemens were headed there before the steroids.   Had they admitted it, would they already be in?  

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Do the writers relent and let Bonds and Clemens in on the last shot?     Schilling had a nice career, but he's borderline.   Never won a Cy Young.  My guess is that like Jack Morris, he'll get in later.    

Sad thing is that Bonds and Clemens were headed there before the steroids.   Had they admitted it, would they already be in?  

schilling is so much better than jack morris.

[Archie]

2 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Do the writers relent and let Bonds and Clemens in on the last shot?     Schilling had a nice career, but he's borderline.   Never won a Cy Young.  My guess is that like Jack Morris, he'll get in later.    

Sad thing is that Bonds and Clemens were headed there before the steroids.   Had they admitted it, would they already be in?  

For me the MLB HOF doesn't mean much.  When great players are excluded because they might not be good people is rediculous. Being in the HOF is all about accomplishments on the field and  not about a players political views or how many old ladies they helped cross the street.

Pete Rose is one of greatest to play the game and should be in the HOF.  He may have gambled but he bet on himself not against himself where he could rig a game.

Bonds and Clemens used steroids.  So what?  Other players in HOF did too and athletes for generations have used things they thought would increase their performance but were not as obvious as steroids. 

Maybe it's time someone else votes on the HOF instead of the press?

[oblong]

how do we know Rose never bet against himself or rigged a game?  Because he said so?  Why should we believe him when he's lied repeatedly?

And a player doesn't have to make a bet against himself to help gamblers.   If he bets $10K on the first game but nothing on the second game.... well that's information right there for them to use.  He can say he didn't bet against himself but the gamblers that he owes money to could still credit him.

Betting on your team to win or lose is indistinguishable.  They are the same.  He agreed to the maximum punishment which was a permanent ban.

[Archie]

22 minutes ago, oblong said:

how do we know Rose never bet against himself or rigged a game?  Because he said so?  Why should we believe him when he's lied repeatedly?

And a player doesn't have to make a bet against himself to help gamblers.   If he bets $10K on the first game but nothing on the second game.... well that's information right there for them to use.  He can say he didn't bet against himself but the gamblers that he owes money to could still credit him.

Betting on your team to win or lose is indistinguishable.  They are the same.  He agreed to the maximum punishment which was a permanent ban.

Again, what Pete Rose accomplished on the field speaks for itself.

There is no evidence what so ever he bet on himself.  

[RatkoVarda]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

schilling is so much better than jack morris.

could have kept both out based on performance, but once Morris is in, Schilling's addition is an easy call

[SoCalTiger]

Shoeless Joe Jackson says hello.....

[oblong]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

Again, what Pete Rose accomplished on the field speaks for itself.

There is no evidence what so ever he bet on himself.  

betting on baseball and your own team as a participant is on the field and game for judgement.

[Tiger337]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

Again, what Pete Rose accomplished on the field speaks for itself.

There is no evidence what so ever he bet on himself.  

At the time he was banned, gambling was absolutely forbidden in baseball and for good reason.  The ban of Rose was  justified.  Now, that MLB has partnered with gambling organizations and actively markets the game around gambling, it becomes cloudier. 

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, Archie said:

Again, what Pete Rose accomplished on the field speaks for itself.

There is no evidence what so ever he bet on himself.  

Doesn't Pete have himself  to blame at this point as well? I've never been that interested in the all the gory details of Pete's story but didn't they give him a chance to make a gesture of atonement and he has refused? 

[oblong]

2 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Doesn't Pete have himself  to blame at this point as well? I've never been that interested in the all the gory details of Pete's story but didn't they give him a chance to make a gesture of atonement and he has refused? 

He could have gotten off at the time if he'd have come clean and cooperated.  Baseball wasn't out to get him.  Pete was into some very bad shit and didn't want it to come out.  He felt it was better to fight and play victim and do his auto signings at casinos and such.  There's strong indications that Lenny Dykstra did similar things but he admitted to it and baseball worked with him. Don Zimmer too.

Pete smeared Giamatti, Vincent... said he didn't bet on baseball, then it was baseball but not the Reds, but yes, it was indeed the Reds.

Again... when an agreement is and the person agrees to the maximum punishment... doesn't pass the smell test for a guy claiming to be innocent.  

A guy on charge for 1st degree murder facing life in prison accepts a plea deal.... for life in prison.... it means he didn't want a trial and certain details to be exposed.

 

[Tenacious D]

7 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Do the writers relent and let Bonds and Clemens in on the last shot?     Schilling had a nice career, but he's borderline.   Never won a Cy Young.  My guess is that like Jack Morris, he'll get in later.    

Sad thing is that Bonds and Clemens were headed there before the steroids.   Had they admitted it, would they already be in?  

Will be very hypocritical if the writers vote in Big Papi, who used, and not the others only because he’s a good guy.