Jim Cowan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 There is a scene in Field of Dreams that drives me nuts. Archie Graham has just arrived and is excitedly identifying players...Smokey Joe Wood is one I think...and then he says "and Gil Hodges!". Gil Hodges wasn't even born yet when Moonlight Graham played. He has to be the most overrated player in history. And I'm really ticked off about Dick Allen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I had forgotten that Allen won the MVP in 1972. I was ten years old and remember thinking how good he was and wondering why writers were always criticizing him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I remember Oliva as a really high profile player in his day, so at least from the 'fame' part I have no complaint. It's tough to look back at the guys from the pitcher era and decide who 'deserves' it given the statistical compression between the good and great players of that era. But he didn't play long enough to do anything on the counting stat end so I don't know by what logic he goes in and Freehan is still out. Yes a lot of Oliva's came from an achievement that was more valued in the 60's, the "batting championship". He won 3, including his first 2 years in the league. He was MVP runner up twice. I'm kind of surprised that he wasn't in before now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 32 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: Yes a lot of Oliva's came from an achievement that was more valued in the 60's, the "batting championship". He won 3, including his first 2 years in the league. He was MVP runner up twice. I'm kind of surprised that he wasn't in before now. I also remember him being highly regarded, but I am not surprised it took him so long. He didn't play long enough. He didn't even reach 2,000 hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 21 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: I also remember him being highly regarded, but I am not surprised it took him so long. He didn't play long enough. He didn't even reach 2,000 hits. Yes that's a surprise that he didn't get to 2,000. He had some big individual year totals, but not a long enough career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Fowler, Hodges, Kat, Minoan, O’Neil & Oliva Dick Allen missed by one vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 4 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I had forgotten that Allen won the MVP in 1972. I was ten years old and remember thinking how good he was and wondering why writers were always criticizing him. because he was an ass hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Tiger337 said: I also remember him being highly regarded, but I am not surprised it took him so long. He didn't play long enough. He didn't even reach 2,000 hits. The advantage Oliva probably has over Allen with voters is that he played on some good teams in MInn when he was productive. Allen's teams in Philly and Chicago were crappy. Maybe that shouldn't matter but I think there are almost subliminal ideas that are always there in the background for some voters that a good player should elevate his team and likewise that on a good team a good player is seeing the opposition's best in a way that a player on a bad team may not. Sure a player can never go the WS/playoffs and make the Hall, but I think it's always a slightly higher bar for them. Allen was on one Phillies playoff team at the end but he was not a big contributor by then and didn't do much in that playoff Edited December 6, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 9 hours ago, buddha said: because he was an ass hole. No, he was not. He didn't take any crap from people, especially the crackers on the Phillies when he first got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 13 minutes ago, Jim Cowan said: No, he was not. He didn't take any crap from people, especially the crackers on the Phillies when he first got there. i've seen enough people call him an ass hole to think that where there is smoke, there is likely a little fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 minute ago, buddha said: i've seen enough people call him an ass hole to think that where there is smoke, there is likely a little fire. I've never heard a Black baseball player call him one. Quite the opposite. I will take Willie Stargell's opinion over Arnold Hano's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Just now, Jim Cowan said: I've never heard a Black baseball player call him one. Quite the opposite. I will take Willie Stargell's opinion over Arnold Hano's. ok. ymmv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 23 hours ago, mtutiger said: Jim Kaat?!? Hall of Famer? Crazy I will say that, perusing social media, a lot of his contemporaries think he should be there (Carew, Jim Palmer, etc). Obviously true if he was selected through this process. Must be his longevity I guess... he seems borderline to me based on the stat sheet. Edited December 7, 2021 by mtutiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 21 hours ago, buddha said: because he was an ass hole. That may be true, but any outspoken black man would have been viewed as one in the 60s. So, it's hard to tell. Regardless, there are lots of assholes in the Hall of Fame, so that's not a Hall of Fame qualification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 2 hours ago, mtutiger said: I will say that, perusing social media, a lot of his contemporaries think he should be there (Carew, Jim Palmer, etc). Obviously true if he was selected through this process. Must be his longevity I guess... he seems borderline to me based on the stat sheet. Kaat had a better career ERA, more wins and a higher WAR than Morris. Unless the argument is that Morris doesn’t belong, which I can get behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: That may be true, but any outspoken black man would have been viewed as one in the 60s. So, it's hard to tell. Regardless, there are lots of assholes in the Hall of Fame, so that's not a Hall of Fame qualification. right on both counts. Heck when Jake Wood and Willie Horton came to Detroit they were playing for a GM who was a holdover from the notoriously racist Briggs organization. It's not like the guys in that generation didn't face a lot of establishment types that were expecting gratitude and subservience "for what they had done for them" instead of demands for "don't call me Richie" levels of respect. So it's not like they didn't have reason for there to be a little anger that probably wasn't too hard to reach. Edited December 7, 2021 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 43 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: That may be true, but any outspoken black man would have been viewed as one in the 60s. So, it's hard to tell. Regardless, there are lots of assholes in the Hall of Fame, so that's not a Hall of Fame qualification. i would put allen in the hall of fame. i also think there's a good chance he really was an ass hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 11 minutes ago, buddha said: i would put allen in the hall of fame. i also think there's a good chance he really was an ass hole. It's easy to find articles online in which his former teammates were interviewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutiger Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Tenacious D said: Kaat had a better career ERA, more wins and a higher WAR than Morris. Unless the argument is that Morris doesn’t belong, which I can get behind. I'm OK with Morris not being in the Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 hall of fame day! too bad shelton isnt here. i think ortiz gets in and nobody else does. which will be a damn shame, but its the bbwaa so you cant expect them to do something smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, buddha said: hall of fame day! too bad shelton isnt here. i think ortiz gets in and nobody else does. which will be a damn shame, but its the bbwaa so you cant expect them to do something smart. Agree. Regardless of how much PED smoke or fire there is around the guy, they were always going to find a way to get David Ortiz into the Hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 minute ago, chasfh said: Agree. Regardless of how much PED smoke or fire there is around the guy, they were always going to find a way to get David Ortiz into the Hall. its such bullshit. arod, bonds, clemens, and schilling cant get a sniff and that fat liar gets in on the first ballot because he's "jolly". four of the best players of all time cant get in because the writers have their panties in a bunch about roids or schilling's politics and ortiz gets a pass. manny ramirez should be pissed too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Maybe too much emphasis is put on the hall of fame as far as career achievements go. Whitaker should be in there ahead of Morris, but that isn't how it turned out. I found the memorabilia in the building fascinating. I enjoyed the main drag with its different shops and restaurants and small town feel. The plaques didn't really hold as much interest too me as I thought they would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Besides his legitimately great performance in playoff situations, Ortiz has the advantage of being, as you say, jolly. If he were a lippy black man with the same stat line, no way he gets in even with the postseason performances. But "beisbol been berry berry good" to him, so in he goes. Never mind that he never paid any price for his poorly-excused usage, but woe to the guy with almost 700 career homers who, when caught, quietly served his time, didn't lip off about any injustice or anything, then came back and just went right back to work. He did it right. And he'll never get in as long as this generation has a say in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 10 minutes ago, chasfh said: Besides his legitimately great performance in playoff situations, Ortiz has the advantage of being, as you say, jolly. If he were a lippy black man with the same stat line, no way he gets in even with the postseason performances. But "beisbol been berry berry good" to him, so in he goes. Never mind that he never paid any price for his poorly-excused usage, but woe to the guy with almost 700 career homers who, when caught, quietly served his time, didn't lip off about any injustice or anything, then came back and just went right back to work. He did it right. And he'll never get in as long as this generation has a say in it. not only that, but he got shot in the dominican by some gangster. ortiz does some shady shit but gets away with it because he smiles a lot. although, if being a happy black dude as opposed to dick allen gets you in the hall of fame, then why isnt sammy in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.