chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 29 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: 500 is becoming more commonplace. Does Sheffield belong? He is close, but he shouldn't be automatic. I definitely believe Sheffield is getting jobbed out of the Hall. Every eligible batter above him with a higher oWAR than his 80.7 and who's not being kept out because of PED moralizing or gambling is in, and the next highest eligible player who's not in is Dick Allen, and he's over 10 oWAR behind Sheff. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing borderline about Gary Sheffield. Anyone who believes he doesn't belong in the Hall does so for reasons other than his performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, buddha said: 609 home runs is a lot. i'd put him in. He also stole 234 bases. He was a very good power/speed threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, chasfh said: I don't know, 600+ homers and three years of 60+ bombs is a pretty big deal. Plus he's got really favorable Hall of Fame standard numbers and JAWS. The only real thing about him that's borderline is his bWAR is 58, although his fWAR is 60. I'd vote him in. But then, I'd've voted in McGwire, too, who had even better numbers, and when was the last time anyone talked about him and the Hall? mcgwire should definitely be in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 gary sheffield should be in too. suffers from dick allen disease. writers dont like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 57 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said: I agree, how can you (MLB) take money from gambling companies and tell the players not to gamble..... If Baseball started allowing players to lay down money on games in which they have a duty to perform, there's a good chance I would just stop following the game at that point. The one and only thing that keeps me interested in sports is the idea that everyone involved is trying their best to win, and I couldn't assume that anymore if those with a duty to perform in a game were laying money on games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, chasfh said: I definitely believe Sheffield is getting jobbed out of the Hall. Every eligible batter above him with a higher oWAR than his 80.7 and who's not being kept out because of PED moralizing or gambling is in, and the next highest eligible player who's not in is Dick Allen, and he's over 10 oWAR behind Sheff. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing borderline about Gary Sheffield. Anyone who believes he doesn't belong in the Hall does so for reasons other than his performance. Just for grins, Sheffield's 10 similarity scores on bbref contains 8 hall of famers, Miguel Cabrera, and Fred McGriff. So that's basically 9 HOFs and a Tom Emansky video, which should also be enshrined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 minute ago, buddha said: gary sheffield should be in too. suffers from dick allen disease. writers dont like him. True. Well, there's a lot more than just that, but yes, that's a big one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 By the same bbref similarity score method, Sosa's list is 9 HOFs and Sheffield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 22 minutes ago, chasfh said: I don't know, 600+ homers and three years of 60+ bombs is a pretty big deal. Plus he's got really favorable Hall of Fame standard numbers and JAWS. The only real thing about him that's borderline is his bWAR is 58, although his fWAR is 60. I'd vote him in. But then, I'd've voted in McGwire, too, who had even better numbers, and when was the last time anyone talked about him and the Hall? 128 OPS+ for a corner outfielder is borderline too. McGwire was a much better hitter throughout his career Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Mcgwire is one of the most underrated hitters of all time, of course he is the poster boy for peds so I know why he doesnt get the recognition he does but boy was he a force at the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: 128 OPS+ for a corner outfielder is borderline too. McGwire was a much better hitter throughout his career Better than Tim Raines or Lou Brock. I'd vote Sammy in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 (edited) McGwire has the 14th highest ops+ of all time, ahead of legends like Musial, Dimaggio, Aaron and Mays. Edited January 25, 2022 by RandyMarsh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said: McGwire has the 14th highest ops+ of all time, ahead of legends like Musial, Dimaggio, Aaron and Mays. He also has the lowest oWAR of all of them. He did make a shit-ton more money than the others, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, chasfh said: Better than Tim Raines or Lou Brock. I'd vote Sammy in. Raines was borderline too. As much as I don't like to say this about my first baseball hero, Brock doesn't belong by today's standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Raines was borderline too. As much as I don't like to say this about my first baseball hero, Brock doesn't belong by today's standards. I guess that depends on how much the performance record should factor, and how much the baseball-related fame part should factor. Because based on the fame all the stolen base records, plus the two rings, conferred on him, he's still got a case. Someone's got to be the worst BBWAA-elected Hall of Famer, after all. Brock's not quite that but he's close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, chasfh said: I guess that depends on how much the performance record should factor, and how much the baseball-related fame part should factor. Because based on the fame all the stolen base records, plus the two rings, conferred on him, he's still got a case. Someone's got to be the worst BBWAA-elected Hall of Famer, after all. Brock's not quite that but he's close. I think it's mostly his stolen base records that got him in. It's just that stolen bases are not as valuable as we though they were at the time. I tend to rank players on value rather than fame. I wouldn't be upset if Sosa made it. He had an odd career though playing in the perfect era for his main skill. I think he probably benefitted more from his era than any else playing at the time. Put him in the 70s or 80s and I think he hits maybe 150 fewer home runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, chasfh said: I definitely believe Sheffield is getting jobbed out of the Hall. Every eligible batter above him with a higher oWAR than his 80.7 and who's not being kept out because of PED moralizing or gambling is in, and the next highest eligible player who's not in is Dick Allen, and he's over 10 oWAR behind Sheff. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing borderline about Gary Sheffield. Anyone who believes he doesn't belong in the Hall does so for reasons other than his performance. I go back and forth on Sheffield. He was a poor fielder which I think legitimately brings down his value. That hurts him with young voters and the other stuff hurts him with old voters. Another thing is the 10-vote limit and the PED log jam. It was not difficult to find 10 better players than Sheffield on recent ballots. Players like Sheffield, Kent and Abreu should do better next year. Personally, I do not think any of them are shoo ins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motown Bombers Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 4 hours ago, chasfh said: Besides his legitimately great performance in playoff situations, Ortiz has the advantage of being, as you say, jolly. If he were a lippy black man with the same stat line, no way he gets in even with the postseason performances. But "beisbol been berry berry good" to him, so in he goes. Never mind that he never paid any price for his poorly-excused usage, but woe to the guy with almost 700 career homers who, when caught, quietly served his time, didn't lip off about any injustice or anything, then came back and just went right back to work. He did it right. And he'll never get in as long as this generation has a say in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cowan Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 I just went and looked at Sheffield again, he's better than I thought he was. He hit those 509 homers without ever striking out 100 times in a season, never even close. His age 25 and 26 seasons were injury-shortened - add the two together and he hit 43 home runs in 535 AB's. And then his age 27 year was ludicrous, 142 walks against 66 K's, with 42 home runs. And in the 3 years ages 34 to 36 he finished 3rd, 2nd, and 8th in MVP voting. Very impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chasfh Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said: A lot of baseball fans think that’s charming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Just now, chasfh said: A lot of baseball fans think that’s charming. It shows that he wants to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddha Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 garbage vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Does this mean he's going to get the ceremony all to himself or can there still be Veteran's committee inductees get in? If he is the lone inductee it makes me even more nauseous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I enjoy seeing all the negativity here about Ortiz. I think he is legit, but he was probably about the 9th best player on the ballot and has some of the same character flaws as those who were better. It's funny because everybody in Boston thinks he is greatest thing ever and I was hoping he'd have to wait his turn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMarsh Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I definitely think he is worthy but I felt there have been way more worthy guys than him in the past not get in on their first ballot, not to mention the guys on this ballot I felt were more worthy. Like look how long Edgar Martinez had to wait cause the voters thought it would be blasphemy to vote in a dh but Ortiz gets to waltz in on his first try. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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