Detroit Lions 2024 Offseason Thread

[gehringer_2]

40 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Goff and McVay apparently didn't mesh.....

Another aspect could be a changing philosophy as much as the particular plays. For instance, did McVay start introducing concepts that resulted in giving Goff less freedom to make his own calls on the field? That's the kind of thing that could sour the relationship even absent issues around ability to execute particular plays. I've seen Goff's coach from Cal say that he felt Goff was the best game manager he had ever coached and he gave him wide latitude (rare at the NCAA level) to make decisions on the field. From what I gather Goff also enjoys that kind of confidence from this Det staff. I think it's  easy to envision a dynamic where a smart coach believes he is certainly smarter than his players and they need to bend to his control, and a proud skilled player asking "why don't you let me play my best game?" Not sure that has to be anyone's fault - it's just a mismatch.

Edited June 18 by gehringer_2

[RedRamage]

24 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Another aspect could be a changing philosophy as much as the particular plays. For instance, did McVay start introducing concepts that resulted in giving Goff less freedom to make his own calls on the field? That's the kind of thing that could sour the relationship even absent issues around ability to execute particular plays.

Very valid point and just more evidence that it's rarely a black and white situation in the NFL. I mean, real life is always like this too and therefore it's true in all sports, but I think the NFL is more interdependent than many other sports.

Quote

Not sure that has to be anyone's fault - it's just a mismatch.

But... the 10 years prior to Goff and McVay the Rams managed ZERO winning seasons. McVay steps in, gets Goff first over all and immediately makes the playoffs, then one year later makes the Super Bowl... then things start the falter a bit... then they make the playoffs again and suddenly McVay is convinced that Goff isn't good enough. Perhaps I'm jaded as a Lions fan but that amount of success seems pretty good to me and shouldn't mean cutting bait.

We've all seen the many cases were a player under performs, goes to a new team that knows how to use/motivate/coach him right and he becomes a star... but Goff wasn't really underperforming, certainly not at first. Something was working... and then it apparently wasn't.

I don't think you can just say: "Eh... it happens, nobody's fault..." I also don't think you can say it's 100% this guys fault or 100% that guys fault... but you're just two years removed from playing in the SB and you just made another playoff run... not a deep run, but still a playoff run and McVay decides he needs to heavily mortgage the future for now.

[RedRamage]

5 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

 

Yeah I don't think it's a given that it's Bates job to lose. That amount of guaranteed money is pocket change to an NFL team. I will be very interested to see how he does in camp and in pre-season. He didn't seem to be excitable or emotional in UFL games... he was 'iced' a few times and just went ahead and kicked super long kicks successfully a second time so I don't think we need to worry about nerves or fan noise or anything.

But he definitely showed that he's less successful outside and will top-level players trying to get at him when he kicks effect him? Or will the idea that he's looking a multi-million dollars if he doesn't screwup get in his head and cause him to screwup?

[MichiganCardinal]

15 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Yeah I don't think it's a given that it's Bates job to lose. That amount of guaranteed money is pocket change to an NFL team. I will be very interested to see how he does in camp and in pre-season. He didn't seem to be excitable or emotional in UFL games... he was 'iced' a few times and just went ahead and kicked super long kicks successfully a second time so I don't think we need to worry about nerves or fan noise or anything.

But he definitely showed that he's less successful outside and will top-level players trying to get at him when he kicks effect him? Or will the idea that he's looking a multi-million dollars if he doesn't screwup get in his head and cause him to screwup?

The outside thing shouldn't be a huge deal, at least in 2024. Green Bay (11/3), Chicago (12/22), and San Francisco (12/30) are the only three outdoor stadiums we play in. Arizona and Houston have retractable roofs, but Arizona's will almost certainly be closed in the September heat and Houston almost never opens theirs (they claim it's to contain crowd noise).

Speaking of crowd noise, that may be a factor. There are a few fewer people attending UFL games than NFL games.

Edited June 18 by MichiganCardinal

[RedRamage]

20 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Speaking of crowd noise, that may be a factor. There are a few fewer people attending UFL games than NFL games.

Pure speculation, but I don't see crowd noise as being an issue for a kicker. Obviously I'm not a kicker so I'm just speaking off the top of my head, but it's not like they have to communicate a player to other players or do an audible to listen for a specific count for the ball to be snapped...

Obviously loud noise is mildly distracting, but I don't see it being a huge issue.

[Sports_Freak]

2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

In fairness, those weren’t obvious “go” situations. Monday Morning QB says, you lost by one you should have pushed it more. But without looking it up, they were all 4th and moderate or 4th and long situations where I think Campbell would have kicked it too. There weren’t any 4th and inches on the 2 where they kicked it. credit to Detroit’s defense for not breaking in the red zone.

One of them I think Stafford was even hurt for and couldn’t have been in even if they wanted to go for it.

1st and goal at the Lions 6 yard line, 1st and 10 at the Lions 11 yard line and 1st and 10 at the Lions 13 yard line. So yeah, none were very short-to-go but they had 12 chances to get a TD. Sure, credit to the Lions D but that falls more on the Rams coaches choking away golden opportunities to win the game. With a veteran QB, they should have had a better outcome. Classic choke job. 😆

[MichiganCardinal]

19 minutes ago, Sports_Freak said:

1st and goal at the Lions 6 yard line, 1st and 10 at the Lions 11 yard line and 1st and 10 at the Lions 13 yard line.

In a vacuum, I think the decision to kick is correct in each of these situations. Obviously games aren’t played in vacuums, but I have a tough time criticizing the decision making. I know people here would have been very critical of Campbell had he has gone for it on 4th and 6+.

And the decision would have been universally ridiculed in another universe where they don’t convert the 4th and then get within field goal range down 4 on their last drive.

Criticizing their offense for not converting though? That’s fair.

[Sports_Freak]

8 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

In a vacuum, I think the decision to kick is correct in each of these situations. Obviously games aren’t played in vacuums, but I have a tough time criticizing the decision making. I know people here would have been very critical of Campbell had he has gone for it on 4th and 6+.

And the decision would have been universally ridiculed in another universe where they don’t convert the 4th and then get within field goal range down 4 on their last drive.

Criticizing their offense for not converting though? That’s fair.

I was being more critical of their passive play calling. McVay is supposed to be an offensive genius and he has an experienced offense. (And QB). Horrible play calling and players not executing at crunch time, classic choke job. And thank goodness for that....

[Motown Bombers]

2 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

Another aspect could be a changing philosophy as much as the particular plays. For instance, did McVay start introducing concepts that resulted in giving Goff less freedom to make his own calls on the field? That's the kind of thing that could sour the relationship even absent issues around ability to execute particular plays. I've seen Goff's coach from Cal say that he felt Goff was the best game manager he had ever coached and he gave him wide latitude (rare at the NCAA level) to make decisions on the field. From what I gather Goff also enjoys that kind of confidence from this Det staff. I think it's  easy to envision a dynamic where a smart coach believes he is certainly smarter than his players and they need to bend to his control, and a proud skilled player asking "why don't you let me play my best game?" Not sure that has to be anyone's fault - it's just a mismatch.

I've read the Rams forum and articles from the Rams writers at the time. What I've learned is a lot lies with McVay. Zac Taylor was the QB coach in 17 and 18. Taylor left after 18 for the Bengals job. They didn't hire a new QB coach and McVay became more involved. After the Super Bowl in which the offense and Goff was bad, McVay wanted to make some adjustments. The problem is McVay wanted to micromanage and never seemed to trust Goff. He would at times run a no huddle hurry up offense so McVay could see the defense and then talk to Goff in his helmet on calling protections etc. Needless to say this didn't work. McVay would throw Goff under the bus in team meetings. At the end, he called Goff out publicly and benched him for Wolford. 

Goff gets sent to Detroit and you see the same issues. Unable to pick up the blitz, wouldn't go done field, lots of check downs, etc. That's when Campbell demoted Lynn and talk Goff under his wing. Goff was coached on recognizing blitzes, makin pre-snap reads, etc. Campbell even mentioned Goff has more responsibility with the Lions than he did with the Rams. Ben Johnson also sat down with Goff about the plays he's most comfortable running and Goff has a lot more input on the offense than he did with the Rams. 

[Jimbo]

I definitely think Goff's intelligence is his most underrated quality.  He clearly isn't the best QB under pressure although that is most QB's in the league.  So much in this league there are are just circumstances (and luck) on how successful a player becomes because there are just so many moving pieces.  There are definitely players like Barry and Calvin that will succeed in all situations on pure talent although a lot of the time in the NFL there are players that would of been a lot more successful in different situations.  Probably more than any other sport and especially for a QB.  We can debate about who was more at fault with the break up of McVay and Goff.  I would put more blame on management in these situations because that is your job.  Your paid millions, not for your athletic ability but to bring out the best in your players and put them in the best situation to succeed (especially the QB).  Now sometimes a player fits better with a certain coach.  I think that was the case with both Stafford and Goff.  This is one of those trades that I think worked perfectly for both teams.  Maybe the Rams gave up a lot for the future although they won a championship and this wasn't a team that was on the up.  They needed to win then because a lot of their talent wasn't go to be around for much longer.  For the Lions (forget the draft picks for a second), I just don't think Stafford was ready for another regime change and even though they finally got it right it would of been very hard for him to go through that first Campbell/Holmes year without checking out.  Goff was motivated and a lot younger so he was willing to listen and learn from the coaching staff.  Just a good trade for everyone.

[Tenacious D]

 

[MichiganCardinal]

Pretty good offseason for QB1. Hopefully the first of two rings he'll get in the next 365 days.

 

[Motown Bombers]

Still have Melifonwu and Barnes who are solid players. That draft didn’t have any of the 1st round Stafford picks yet. 

[MichiganCardinal]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

Still have Melifonwu and Barnes who are solid players. That draft didn’t have any of the 1st round Stafford picks yet. 

If they included the top 10 instead of stopping at 8, Iffy would have been #10.

[RandyMarsh]

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-25-nfl-players-25-and-under-for-2024-vikings-justin-jefferson-among-nine-star-wrs-to-make-the-list/

5 Lions make the list. If you cut it off at UNDER 25 than the Lions would have 5 of the 15 players on the list. Yet according to some lazy national pundits their window is closing after this year. 

[Motown Bombers]

22 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/top-25-nfl-players-25-and-under-for-2024-vikings-justin-jefferson-among-nine-star-wrs-to-make-the-list/

5 Lions make the list. If you cut it off at UNDER 25 than the Lions would have 5 of the 15 players on the list. Yet according to some lazy national pundits their window is closing after this year. 

With all the hype around the Packers being so young, there is only one Packer on the list and who is 25. 

[MichiganCardinal]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

With all the hype around the Packers being so young, there is only one Packer on the list and who is 25. 

If Love is for real and the Packers maintain some amount of their 2023 momentum, they will be a tough out in the North.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

If Love is for real and the Packers maintain some amount of their 2023 momentum, they will be a tough out in the North.

Love is always real, man!

(hear this in Dennis Hopper's voice and you have it.)

[RandyMarsh]

3 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

If Love is for real and the Packers maintain some amount of their 2023 momentum, they will be a tough out in the North.

For sure but I do find it funny how all you hear about is how young their roster is and how good they are so they are set up for years yet you dont hear that much talk about the Lions despite their roster being almost equally young and filled with more proven young players.

All their skill players, best O lineman, 3/4 D line, 1/2 LBs and 4/5 secondary are all 25 and under. With the vast majority of those guys already under control for atleast 3 more seasons along with their sub 30 yr old Pro Bowl QB. 

[Jason_R]

9 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

If Love is for real and the Packers maintain some amount of their 2023 momentum, they will be a tough out in the North.

Love has had ten good NFL games. Granted, that is ten more than I have had, but there are a lot of guys who have looked good for half of a season then faltered. 

[slothfacekilla]

16 hours ago, Jason_R said:

Granted, that is ten more than I have had

This just means you're due!