Detroit Lions 2024 Offseason Thread

[NYLion]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Mike Williams was cut. If he can’t get a long-term deal somewhere, seems like a one-year Holmes classic candidate.

I don't think he fits the Lions offense and Goff in particular. Mike Williams is a jump ball merchant and that's just not Goff's strength. I could see them more in on somebody like Renfrow than Mike Williams.

[NYLion]

2 hours ago, Motown Bombers said:

The NFLPA does warn their players about teams. If the Lions keep not spending, and then ask the players they do sign to pay cuts a year later while they are flush with cap space, the NFLPA will start warning players about the Lions like they used to do about the Bengals. It's weird, the Lions were criticized for recouping bonuses from Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson that were unearned but feel it's ok to constantly ask their players to take pay cuts. 

You're reading WAY too much into this. 

[MichiganCardinal]

Just now, NYLion said:

I don't think he fits the Lions offense and Goff in particular. Mike Williams is a jump ball merchant and that's just not Goff's strength. I could see them more in on somebody like Renfrow than Mike Williams.

I think I would counter that I don't think they've ever really given him a jump ball merchant to use. Chark is as close as they got, and he averaged about five targets a game when he actually played.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, RedRamage said:

Okay, so if I'm following you (and please do correct me if I'm wrong here), you'd saying that the Lions offer back loaded 2 year deals with the second half not guaranteed so that players are more likely to sign with them vs. a team which only offers a 1 year deal. For example Detroit offers two years, $4M the first year, and an unguaranteed $7M the second while Chicago offers $5 for one year. This lures the player to Detroit because hey... (4+7)/2 years equals 5.5M per year instead of only 5. 

Is this what you're saying?

 

Right and then in year two they can be like either take this reduced amount or try your hand at free agency. I don't particularly think it's a good way to do business. 

[NYLion]

Just now, MichiganCardinal said:

I think I would counter that I don't think they've ever really given him a jump ball merchant to use. Chark is as close as they got, and he averaged about five targets a game when he actually played.

That's fair but Goff did miss Chark on a lot of jump ball opportunities to my recollection.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think I would counter that I don't think they've ever really given him a jump ball merchant to use. Chark is as close as they got, and he averaged about five targets a game when he actually played.

He never really had one with the Rams either. Kupp, Cooks and Woods weren't exactly jump ball merchants either. 

[RedRamage]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

Right and then in year two they can be like either take this reduced amount or try your hand at free agency. I don't particularly think it's a good way to do business. 

Okay, so given that NFL contracts are not guaranteed unless specifically written as such, and given that NFL players, especially fringe players, are cut all the time, why are the players assuming that the second year WILL happen? I mean, unless the Lions are like: "Yeah, we're not gonna put it in writing, but we REALLY like you and we REALLY want you for both years, so consider it a done deal, except not in writing." Which I don't think the Lions are doing.

If I was a player and someone offered me less month this year with the potential to earn more money next year, I'd take the contact with more money this year. If I play great this year, I going into next being able to command more. If I play poorly this year on a 2 year deal, I face getting cut and not getting the extra.

[Longgone]

4 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

Right and then in year two they can be like either take this reduced amount or try your hand at free agency. I don't particularly think it's a good way to do business. 

You are saying players, and especially agents, don't understand what the words " not guaranteed" means. It's your understanding that is off.

[Motown Bombers]

1 minute ago, Longgone said:

You are saying players, and especially agents, don't understand what the words " not guaranteed" means. It's your understanding that is off.

No I'm not saying that. Guaranteed money is the same but the Lions can add non guaranteed money and years to entice a player with a higher total value only to come back the next year and ask them to take a pay cut. 

[1984Echoes]

6 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I think Mack actually makes a lot of sense, if he is willing to rework his contract to substantially reduce that cap hit. I might even extend him one year if it could spread that $38MM over the two years or...

...Mike Williams would make more sense as a Reynolds replacement if he becomes available, but he's not worth anywhere near that cap hit. He's ...

Cap hits are MEANINGLESS once a player has been released.

The only "cap hit" that matters after that is the next contract that that player signs... NOT his previous cap hit.

[Longgone]

2 minutes ago, Motown Bombers said:

No I'm not saying that. Guaranteed money is the same but the Lions can add non guaranteed money and years to entice a player with a higher total value only to come back the next year and ask them to take a pay cut. 

Every player knows that the non guaranteed year(s) are to the teams benefit and not the players, and they will only get them if they earn them

[MichiganCardinal]

3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Cap hits are MEANINGLESS once a player has been released.

The only "cap hit" that matters after that is the next contract that that player signs... NOT his previous cap hit.

In both I was referring to trades. I was saying I would be willing to trade for Mack and rework his contract, but would not be willing to trade for Williams.

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, Motown Bombers said:

You keep playing hardball like that and you're going to get a reputation. Ironically, that's what Quinn and Patricia said to players like Slay who didn't buy into their program. 

They never tried to get Slay to take a pay cut. I'm not talking about major players, I'm talking about depth players. You can't pay fringe players like top line starters. 

[1984Echoes]

11 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

In both I was referring to trades. I was saying I would be willing to trade for Mack and rework his contract, but would not be willing to trade for Williams.

I would have zero interest in trading for any player with that cap hit.

I'll wait for a guy to be released and sign him to a Lions contract with our own cap hit...

not someone else's...

[Longgone]

20 minutes ago, RedRamage said:

Okay, so given that NFL contracts are not guaranteed unless specifically written as such, and given that NFL players, especially fringe players, are cut all the time, why are the players assuming that the second year WILL happen? I mean, unless the Lions are like: "Yeah, we're not gonna put it in writing, but we REALLY like you and we REALLY want you for both years, so consider it a done deal, except not in writing." Which I don't think the Lions are doing.

If I was a player and someone offered me less month this year with the potential to earn more money next year, I'd take the contact with more money this year. If I play great this year, I going into next being able to command more. If I play poorly this year on a 2 year deal, I face getting cut and not getting the extra.

He's not thinking this through. Non guaranteed years are not an incentive for the players because they're NON GUARANTEED. They benefit the team, not the players, the team can choose to either continue the contract if it's a good value, or cut the player, a win/win for them.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

I agree with what MB is saying in one regard as it pertains to the way the Lions treat players and their cap space/flexibility. After how badly Martin Mayhew and Tom Lewand managed the cap around here and after Quinn blew a bunch of it on the likes of Trey Flowers, it is nice to see Brad Holmes and Mike Disner being responsible. But there is a fine line between being responsible with it and looking like you're a cheap organization. Nobody is accusing them of being Mike Brown or the Bengals. However, if the Lions are so hard up to be as fickle and responsible as possible that they have to ask a guy to take a $2 million pay cut and have done this before, that shows you how they treat their salary cap and having financial flexibility.

My question is, if they do that to their own players, would they let a free agent on the open market walk over $1.5-$2-$3 million in a contract negotiation?

Let's say DJ Reader, whose been linked to the Lions, wants 2 at $25 million and the Lions only want to go 2 at $22 million. Given how he treats some of his own players, would Holmes negotiate with a free agent like that? Would he let someone walk over a couple million he doesn't feel they are owed?

Edited March 13, 2024 by Mr.TaterSalad

[Longgone]

8 minutes ago, Mr.TaterSalad said:

I agree with what MB is saying in one regard as it pertains to the way the Lions treat players and their cap space/flexibility. After how badly Martin Mayhew and Tom Lewand managed the cap around here and after Quinn blew a bunch of it on the likes of Trey Flowers, it is nice to see Brad Holmes and Mike Disner being responsible. But there is a fine line between being responsible with it and looking like you're a cheap organization. Nobody is accusing them of being Mike Brown or the Bengals. However, if the Lions are so hard up to be as fickle and responsible as possible that they have to ask a guy to take a $2 million pay cut and have done this before, that shows you how they treat their salary cap and having financial flexibility.

My question is, if they do that to their own players, would they let a free agent on the open market walk over $1.5-$2-$3 million in a contract negotiation?

Let's say DJ Reader, whose been linked to the Lions, wants 2 at $25 million and the Lions only want to go 2 at $22 million. Given how he treats some of his own players, would Holmes negotiate with a free agent like that? Would he let someone walk over a couple million he doesn't feel they are owed?

You guys are connecting imaginary dots.

[Mr.TaterSalad]

2 minutes ago, Longgone said:

You guys are connecting imaginary dots.

I think Holmes has clearly showed he won't overpay for free agents. Nothing imaginary about that.

[MichiganCardinal]

I don't think there is any real evidence that the Lions go about things any differently than any other smart organization.

And honestly, if the fringe roster types of John Cominsky, Hal Vaitai, and Charles Harris are annoyed at the expense of the pleasure of guys like Goff, ASB, and Hutch.... oh well.

I think this is a mountain out of an ant hill topic that crops up here every offseason.

[Motown Bombers]

6 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don't think there is any real evidence that the Lions go about things any differently than any other smart organization.

And honestly, if the fringe roster types of John Cominsky, Hal Vaitai, and Charles Harris are annoyed at the expense of the pleasure of guys like Goff, ASB, and Hutch.... oh well.

I think this is a mountain out of an ant hill topic that crops up here every offseason.

It's not like Goff, St Brown or Hutchinson have signed extensions yet. Cominsky taking a pay cut doesn't affect any of them since extensions wouldn't kick in until he's off the books. 

[Tenacious D]

Please, please, please sign someone else so we can change this conversation quickly.

[Tigeraholic1]

4 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Please, please, please sign someone else so we can change this conversation quickly.

Yes please! I keep coming here to check for some kind of move and have to wade through pages of meaningless bickering….

[Motown Bombers]

I came here to check if the Lions renegotiated another contract and it’s just bickering about the bickering. 

[MichiganCardinal]

1 minute ago, Motown Bombers said:

I came here to check if the Lions renegotiated another contract and it’s just bickering about the bickering. 

It's not bickering about the bickering it's squabbling about the quarreling.

[Jason_R]

4 minutes ago, Tigeraholic1 said:

Yes please! I keep coming here to check for some kind of move and have to wade through pages of meaningless bickering….

I saw five new pages of posts since I checked this morning and assumed we must have acquired Mack. Imagine my surprise.