Utah Jazz are trading Simone Fonteccio to the Pistons for a 2024 2nd round pick

[Deleterious]

 

[gehringer_2]

"if you’re a guard in this league you have to make shots"

I mean like really, man - Who knew?

[1984Echoes]

Too bad he wasn't thinking exactly that when Haliburton was sitting right there.

[gehringer_2]

"Weaver on Bogey: "We had better offers last year at the deadline. You can say that. This is where we are now and I like what we got in return for those guys"

Trans: "Yeah, I blew it. But it be cool."

[RandyMarsh]

If you're horrible offensively your defense automatically gets overembelished. Its like people figure that you suck so bad offensively you must bring something to the table defensively. If it's not your defense they praise then you usually get labeled something like "scrappy" or a "glue guy".

[Shinzaki]

Gonna be an interesting run to the end of the season. Cade, Ivey and Duren is an intriguing foundation

Edited February 9 by Shinzaki

[casimir]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

"Weaver on Bogey: "We had better offers last year at the deadline. You can say that. This is where we are now and I like what we got in return for those guys"

Trans: "Yeah, I blew it. But it be cool."

"They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

--Oscar, 3:16

[buddha]

how weaver still has a job is beyond me.  "yeah, i waste assets like crazy but hey look cade and ivey are playing well so i'm a genius."

[casimir]

17 hours ago, buddha said:

how weaver still has a job is beyond me.  "yeah, i waste assets like crazy but hey look cade and ivey are playing well so i'm a genius."

Yup.  Even if this team takes off a bit under the efforts of the kids, there’s been so much wasting of assets along the way that it’s time to move on.

But as a show of appreciation, Weaver can take the city jerseys with him.

[RandyMarsh]

To me the most glaring thing is how we have gotten worse every year under him, I get that when you choose to bottom out you are going to get worse before you get better but we've been in a consistent nose dive since we first bottomed out(or so we thought at the time bottomed out). 

I go back to the year we finished last and ended up getting Cade, if you look at that year yeah we finished with the worst record but we won quite a few games against good teams and overall were about as competitive as a last place team can be. Since then every year we've gotten a little worse instead of getting getting better like you would expect. Thankfully it seems like we are improving as this year has gone on so that is one positive, lets see if we can maintain that the rest of the year though or if this is just a "good" 3 week stretch. 

[Deleterious]

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Yup.  Even if this team takes off a bit under the efforts of the kids, there’s been so much wasting of assets along the way that it’s time to move on.

But as a show of appreciation, Weaver can take the city jerseys with him.

Which assets were wasted?

[Deleterious]

43 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

To me the most glaring thing is how we have gotten worse every year under him, I get that when you choose to bottom out you are going to get worse before you get better but we've been in a consistent nose dive since we first bottomed out(or so we thought at the time bottomed out). 

I go back to the year we finished last and ended up getting Cade, if you look at that year yeah we finished with the worst record but we won quite a few games against good teams and overall were about as competitive as a last place team can be. Since then every year we've gotten a little worse instead of getting getting better like you would expect. Thankfully it seems like we are improving as this year has gone on so that is one positive, lets see if we can maintain that the rest of the year though or if this is just a "good" 3 week stretch. 

This is my big issue with him as well.

[RandyMarsh]

I don't know if it would fall under "wasted assets" but one move or lack there of that always sticks out to me was not trading Jerami Grant that first deadline we had him. Admittedly some of it is hindsight but I think most of it was common sense and something that reasonably should have been expected. Also there is the caveat that this comes with rumors and I don't know if  there was any truth or concrete deals. 

Anyway At the time if you were to believe the rumors there were quite a few would be offers for Grant that deadline since he was under control for 2 1/2 years at a good rate and was performing well above his contract at the time. It appeared that he was coming into his own here and could command a really good return that could help the future. 

Seeing as we were still atleast 2 years away it didn't make a whole lot of sense in my mind to keep him cause by the time we were competitive he'd be up for a new contract anyway so if we really could get a haul for him it was a no brainer to trade him.

OTOH in Weaver's defense I don't know what that "haul" was, maybe it wasn't that good and maybe Weaver felt that if Grant continued this efficient strong play he could command more in the offseason or next deadline since it would be a bigger sample size of strong play. 

Also it is worth noting that he was still able to essentially get a lottery pick so he atleast extracted some value but IF there truly were these pie in the sky offers like some of the rumors suggested I think it's fair to say he left alot on the table when given our team position at that time it made a ton of sense to sell him. 

[Deleterious]

I don't remember the first year offers for Grant.  I put it in Google now and all I get is the actual trade with Portland.  

 

[buddha]

20 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Which assets were wasted?

bogey.  saddiq bey.  spending picks to get rid of bagley.  spending picks to get rid of plumlee.  spending a future first to get stewart.  trading for and then stretching dedmon.

just to name a few.

 

[buddha]

trading bruce brown and luke kennard for three years of saddiq bey and then turning bey into the worst player in the nba.

 

[buddha]

so now after years of bashing weaver and the pistons mgmt, del has to put his contrarion hat back on and now defend weaver.

here's one that del wont defend: turning the #7 pick into killian hayes, then  waiving hayes for nothing 4 years later.

[RandyMarsh]

6 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

I don't remember the first year offers for Grant.  I put it in Google now and all I get is the actual trade with Portland.  

 

Yeah it may have just been internet/radio rumors, I can't remember exactly but my memory tells me that there was alot of talk that dealine but my memory has certainly been wrong before. 

[Deleterious]

2 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yeah it may have just been internet/radio rumors, I can't remember exactly but my memory tells me that there was alot of talk that dealine but my memory has certainly been wrong before. 

I mean, people around here thought Bojan was bringing back multiple firsts.  

Stars almost never bring back unprotected lottery picks.  A guy like Grant never does.  Was the Bucks pick a bit low?  Probably.  But didn't the Duren trade happen right away?  Or a day or two after?  So while the pick was low, it appears he had a plan in place to improve it.

[Deleterious]

18 minutes ago, buddha said:

bogey.  saddiq bey.  spending picks to get rid of bagley.  spending picks to get rid of plumlee.  spending a future first to get stewart.  trading for and then stretching dedmon.

just to name a few.

 

Yeah, this is exactly why I don't think the asset management argument is good.

Bojan got about what was expected.  Even if you disagree you have to give him credit for acquiring him in the first place for peanuts.  

Bagley and Plumlee were sent out for second round picks.  Don't give a **** about those.

The Dedmon thing is funny but it was strategic.  It actually had to be done to complete their FA signings which landed them Grant.

https://theathletic.com/2212237/2020/11/21/pistons-nba-free-agency-opening-day/

Quote

Now, I’m sure you’re asking yourself this question: How was Detroit able to pull off these four signings when it entered free agency with nowhere near as much money as it would take? Here’s how: Per sources, the Pistons plan on waiving and stretching Dedmon (who makes $13.3 million per year) and McGruder (who makes $5.2 million per year), leaving a combined $3.7 million in dead money on the books over the next five years. That alone was enough to make it all work (as I stated before, Okafor will be signed to a vet-minimum deal and Jackson will be signed using the room exception). Detroit acquired Dedmon to clear a roster spot and to stretch his contract to make way for these moves, per sources. It was a strategic approach. Pistons fans likely hear the words “stretch provision” and get flashbacks from the Josh Smith era. Smith’s $5.3 million, which had been on the books since 2014, just came off this year. It appears Detroit likes Grant enough to have a little dead money on the payroll.

The Bey pick was bad, but that falls under poor drafting to me.  So semantics there I guess.  But if you prefer to call it poor asset management thats fine.

I like the Stewart move.

I can disagree with one of your complaints about Weaver and still think he has done a poor job.

[RandyMarsh]

I think most will agree that his drafting/player development has been the biggest issue. I put player development cause it's hard to say if those draft picks were just destined to fail regardless or would have been the right picks if they were in better situations and developed better but regardless we just haven't gotten enough out of our 1st round picks.

Outside of Killian they all have had their moments but atleast to this point they just haven't shown them consistently enough to justify their selection outside of probably Cade but even he has had the obvious injury issues. 

I think if we hit on more of those 8 1sts he has used we probably wouldn't even be discussing any other potential issues cause we'd be looking at a playoff team right now or atleast a team that looks like they are heading in the right direction.

[Betrayer]

On 2/9/2024 at 7:25 AM, buddha said:

for all the justified weaver bashing, these types of trades are what they should have been doing last year instead of bringing in the likes of bagley, wiseman, and harris.  getting rid of ancient vets with limited use and instead getting younger (except for fontecchio) shooters to surround your young core.  spread the floor.

everything we all asked them to do.

the bagley/gallinari trade where you had to include two seconds to get off the bagley contract was another waste of resources.  waiting too long to trade bogey and burks so you dont get at least a first round pick was another waste of resources.  but finally getting shooting means....something?  right?  waiving killian so monty cant bench ivey or sasser is.....something?  baby steps to proper roster management?

Exactly. Got rid of aging vets who took usage on the offensive end and couldn’t play defense. Got 3 and D wings in return.

Yes, it was poor asset management because they waited too long and let the value of those players diminish, but what they did at the deadline is exactly what I would’ve wanted a new GM to do.

I certainly don’t trust him and I think it could/should have been done last year, but these feel like the right moves at this time to correct the course. 

[gehringer_2]

Supposedly we can't lay Williams at Weaver's door and the fact that they are not at least at 10-15% better team with Cade back to play with Ivey/Duren/Stew is inexcusable. If you add talent and it doesn't add wins, then your coaching is literally being counterproductive. 

Possibly his hands were tied "Play Hayes, we're trying to get something for him" etc., but there is no excuse the rest of the season. The need to be significantly better or Williams has to go as well, regardless of the sunk cost.

Edited February 10 by gehringer_2

[RandyMarsh]

Also I will add that I guess ultimately it is your job to find the best player regardless of the situation I think he does deserve atleast some what of a pass due to the nature of that 2020 draft and everything that was going on in the world. With the short seasons and IIRC combine and other pre draft things being limited it did make things tougher to scout and prepare for in that draft. OTOH because of that it probably wasn't the best draft to trade up twice like he did because of those reasons. 

[buddha]

42 minutes ago, Deleterious said:

Yeah, this is exactly why I don't think the asset management argument is good.

Bojan got about what was expected.  Even if you disagree you have to give him credit for acquiring him in the first place for peanuts.  

Bagley and Plumlee were sent out for second round picks.  Don't give a **** about those.

The Dedmon thing is funny but it was strategic.  It actually had to be done to complete their FA signings which landed them Grant.

https://theathletic.com/2212237/2020/11/21/pistons-nba-free-agency-opening-day/

The Bey pick was bad, but that falls under poor drafting to me.  So semantics there I guess.  But if you prefer to call it poor asset management thats fine.

I like the Stewart move.

I can disagree with one of your complaints about Weaver and still think he has done a poor job.

bojan would have gotten a first last year.  everyone has said that.  dealing him AND  burks a year later for what they got is less than what they could have received last year.  that's bad asset mgmt.

moving bagley and seconds to get off his contract is poor asset management, especially considering they signed him to that extension in the first place.  you had to give something of value away in order to have someone TAKE your asset.  you signed bagley to a contract that was so bad (that you criticized) that's bad asset mgmt.  the contract was bad and dealing assets to get rid of it was bad.

using your cap space to trade for harris.  poor asset mgmt.  cap space is an asset.

using seconds to get off the plumlee contract was poor asset management.  YOU criticized the plumlee deal and said how much he sucked for years and asked why they would sign him.  then they used picks to get out of the deal and you dont think that's poor asset mgmt?

they did not have to trade for dedmon and then stretch him to sign grant.  there were other things they could have done.

you dont think trading bey for wiseman was poor asset mgmt?  they compounded their mistake in trading assets FOR the right to draft bey with then trading bey for one of the least valuable players in the league.  how is that good asset mgmt?  and dont give me the "they would have had to sign bey" bull****.  1) no they wouldnt have had to sign him and 2) they could have traded him for something other than the least valuable player in the league.

he's horrible at asset mgmt.  how do you go through a rebuild and four years later have the worst record in the league and NO pick surplus?  you dont know what youre doing, that's how.