Michigan Men's Basketball: AKA the Michigan revenue sport that doesn't have an uber jaded fanbase waiting in the dark for failure.

[romad1]

17 hours ago, GoBlue23 said:

Why is it so difficult for a school to have a good football program and a good basketball program at the same time?  Surely a school like Michigan has the money and resources to do what it takes to be great at more than one major sport at a time.  

Way too much focus on club sports. 

[gehringer_2]

21 hours ago, GoBlue23 said:

Why is it so difficult for a school to have a good football program and a good basketball program at the same time?  Surely a school like Michigan has the money and resources to do what it takes to be great at more than one major sport at a time.  

Mostly just the numbers. When things aren't likely in the first place, their combined odds multiply against you pretty fast. If you have a 1 in 5 shot at a good FB program and one in 5 shot at a good BB program, your odds of having both be good are only 1 in 25.

[Motor City Sonics]

Well, after reading about the incident with the trainers it has become abundantly clear.   Both Warde Manuel and Juwan Howard need to go.   Today.     Juwan can take his entitled brats with him too.     

We all know that he should have been fired the night of the Wisconsin fight.      

He's a total disgrace.  And Warde is too.     Jim's gone, no need for him anymore. 

 

Ono - Do your job. 

[MichiganCardinal]

I don't really understand the loyalty. The man has given you two separate incidences now where he could have been fired for-cause. At least after the Wisconsin incident you could claim it was isolated while recognizing the fact that he had a decent season to that point (which was capped by a surprise Sweet 16 appearance after the incident), fresh off an Elite 8 run and a B1G Championship. They gave him the same level of deference many large programs give their star athletes and coaches. I wanted him fired, but I at least understood why they were hesitant to.

This go-around though? This is just stupid. Worst Michigan Basketball team in school history, man has a history of being physically aggressive with others, has demonstrated a complete inability to recruit top-end talent or coach up mediocre talent, you had publicly announced a zero-tolerance policy, and then he does this and you just.... what? Ignore it?

Ono is in something of a tough spot, because his job is not to babysit Warde. He can't keep coming in and micromanaging the Athletic Department just because Warde is bad at his job; it undermines the office and makes the next person's job harder. First it was that he couldn't play nice with Jim, and now it's that he can't see what an absolute mess of it Juwan has made and continues to make... But what are Ono's options? Let the basketball program languish in mediocrity (or worse) until Warde sees the light and fires the coach (and probably hires a poor replacement) out of principle? That probably doesn't affect his job that much. More importantly for Ono though (and General Counsel), does he allow Juwan to continue assaulting school employees (or others)? The school is already certainly on notice to his propensity to act aggressively towards others.

Warde's contract is up in 2026, and I have a hard time seeing them firing him before that's up (though I'd also be very surprised at this point if it's renewed). I do also think Ono's office needs to step in again, as little as he likely wants to. If Warde isn't going to fire Juwan, ask him why. What does he see that we don't? What makes him think 2024-2025 will be different than this **** show of a season? What makes him think Juwan isn't going to punch someone else, who then sues the university for outrageous sums of money?

[Motor City Sonics]

10 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I don't really understand the loyalty. The man has given you two separate incidences now where he could have been fired for-cause. At least after the Wisconsin incident you could claim it was isolated while recognizing the fact that he had a decent season to that point (which was capped by a surprise Sweet 16 appearance after the incident), fresh off an Elite 8 run and a B1G Championship. They gave him the same level of deference many large programs give their star athletes and coaches. I wanted him fired, but I at least understood why they were hesitant to.

This go-around though? This is just stupid. Worst Michigan Basketball team in school history, man has a history of being physically aggressive with others, has demonstrated a complete inability to recruit top-end talent or coach up mediocre talent, you had publicly announced a zero-tolerance policy, and then he does this and you just.... what? Ignore it?

Ono is in something of a tough spot, because his job is not to babysit Warde. He can't keep coming in and micromanaging the Athletic Department just because Warde is bad at his job; it undermines the office and makes the next person's job harder. First it was that he couldn't play nice with Jim, and now it's that he can't see what an absolute mess of it Juwan has made and continues to make... But what are Ono's options? Let the basketball program languish in mediocrity (or worse) until Warde sees the light and fires the coach (and probably hires a poor replacement) out of principle? That probably doesn't affect his job that much. More importantly for Ono though (and General Counsel), does he allow Juwan to continue assaulting school employees (or others)? The school is already certainly on notice to his propensity to act aggressively towards others.

Warde's contract is up in 2026, and I have a hard time seeing them firing him before that's up (though I'd also be very surprised at this point if it's renewed). I do also think Ono's office needs to step in again, as little as he likely wants to. If Warde isn't going to fire Juwan, ask him why. What does he see that we don't? What makes him think 2024-2025 will be different than this **** show of a season? What makes him think Juwan isn't going to punch someone else, who then sues the university for outrageous sums of money?

If Ono has to step in, then Warde has to go.   This ain't the only bullet in the chamber for Warde either.  Scandal after scandal after scandal across multiple sports  (How many AD's let athletes drive their wives cars, much less crash them?).     And Michigan (and other schools) need to institute a policy - if you're head coach, you can't put your kids on the team.     Well, at least Michigan needs to do that.  Can't be objective when it's your kids, especially when you have the maturity of a 15 year old like Juwan Howard.      Dude is coming off of heart surgery having to be restrained from physically going after the head trainer for "disrespecting" his son (ain't his kids' only incidents, by the way).    Want respect?  Then give it.   What kind of clown show is this?    It really has nothing to do with the record.    He's gotta go.   Today.   

[Motor City Sonics]

Should have never hired a guy with no head coaching experience anywhere at any level.    This isn't the level where you learn on the job.  

[MichiganCardinal]

22 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

If Ono has to step in, then Warde has to go.   This ain't the only bullet in the chamber for Warde either.  Scandal after scandal after scandal across multiple sports  (How many AD's let athletes drive their wives cars, much less crash them?).     And Michigan (and other schools) need to institute a policy - if you're head coach, you can't put your kids on the team.     Well, at least Michigan needs to do that.  Can't be objective when it's your kids, especially when you have the maturity of a 15 year old like Juwan Howard.      Dude is coming off of heart surgery having to be restrained from physically going after the head trainer for "disrespecting" his son (ain't his kids' only incidents, by the way).    Want respect?  Then give it.   What kind of clown show is this?    It really has nothing to do with the record.    He's gotta go.   Today.   

I agree that if Ono has to go over top of Warde and make the ultimate decision to fire Juwan that Ono has to also fire Warde. I just think Ono will do everything in his power to avoid having to replace an AD and a basketball coach at the same time... Whether that's by convincing Warde to fire Juwan himself or by largely accepting whatever Warde tells him as justification for keeping Juwan... He's a university president with bigger fish to fry. Athletics are supposed to be self-sustaining monetarily and easy promotion of your brand, not repeat distractions. I think Ono might even just say "okay" to one more year of Juwan, even at the expense of another 20-loss season, if it means avoiding having to buyout Warde, find a new AD, and find a new basketball coach all while being a university president.

[gehringer_2]

13 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I agree that if Ono has to go over top of Warde and make the ultimate decision to fire Juwan that Ono has to also fire Warde. I just think Ono will do everything in his power to avoid having to replace an AD and a basketball coach at the same time... Whether that's by convincing Warde to fire Juwan himself or by largely accepting whatever Warde tells him as justification for keeping Juwan... He's a university president with bigger fish to fry. Athletics are supposed to be self-sustaining monetarily and easy promotion of your brand, not repeat distractions. I think Ono might even just say "okay" to one more year of Juwan, even at the expense of another 20-loss season, if it means avoiding having to buyout Warde, find a new AD, and find a new basketball coach all while being a university president.

Yeah, I don’t know how much the U cares  about bball. Remember how long the program languished under Tommy “I don’t work overtime” Ammaker and Ellerbe?  Juwan has given them enough reasons to move on,  but my guess is that he’ll wear out his welcome on the behavior side before he does on the record side. 

[buddha]

33 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Yeah, I don’t know how much the U cares  about bball. Remember how long the program languished under Tommy “I don’t work overtime” Ammaker and Ellerbe?  Juwan has given them enough reasons to move on,  but my guess is that he’ll wear out his welcome on the behavior side before he does on the record side. 

the only thing they care about with basketball is that it doesnt embarass them like the fab five scandal did at the time.  beilein was such the perfect michigan basketball coach.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, buddha said:

the only thing they care about with basketball is that it doesnt embarass them like the fab five scandal did at the time.  beilein was such the perfect michigan basketball coach.

I don't know how you get any sane person to coach NCAA basketball since 'one-and-done" came into being. There has been talk that supposedly, OAD was going to end under the next NBA CBA. Will that actually happen? Does it even matter if the whole NCAA amateur system is ending? Who knows!?

[Motor City Sonics]

17 hours ago, buddha said:

the only thing they care about with basketball is that it doesnt embarass them like the fab five scandal did at the time.  beilein was such the perfect michigan basketball coach.

Well, I would say that clinging onto someone from that era hasn't sent the message that they get it.   

Next head coach must have head coaching experience.      

And I am still kind of shocked that as of Sunday at 10:45am Howard is still employed.   

[buddha]

45 minutes ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Well, I would say that clinging onto someone from that era hasn't sent the message that they get it.   

Next head coach must have head coaching experience.      

And I am still kind of shocked that as of Sunday at 10:45am Howard is still employed.   

on the contrary, i am shocked when warde manuel takes action, not when he sits around and waits for someone else to do something.

[MichiganCardinal]

Based on this from JUB, posted a few days ago, I doubt Howard gets fired unless higher administration (like Ono) step in:

 

[gehringer_2]

53 minutes ago, buddha said:

on the contrary, i am shocked when warde manuel takes action, not when he sits around and waits for someone else to do something.

 

43 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Based on this from JUB, posted a few days ago, I doubt Howard gets fired unless higher administration (like Ono) step in:

I think Manuel has made it pretty clear no moves will be made in season, at least unless something completely blows up ( murder, mayhem, etc). And Bacon is right. All firing Howard now does is satisfy some fans' sense of retribution, but that's not in any way productive. 

OTOH, in any normal time, I would be surprised to see Howard extended, but things are so crazy right now. Maybe the people on the inside - Ono/Manuel - see some kind of major re-alignment coming down the pike in the next year or so, in which case maybe you don't want to make a new hire until the dust settles. I'd actually find it hard to believe if there were not a lot of informal networking and quiet discussions going on between groups of University Presidents and ADs about what kind of future they want to drive toward.

That's all pure speculation of course but just mention it as the kind of thing that may be driving top level decision making that we don't get much insight into.

Edited March 3 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

9 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

I think Manuel has made it pretty clear no moves will be made in season, at least unless something completely blows up ( murder, mayhem, etc). And Bacon is right. All firing Howard now does is satisfy some fans' sense of retribution, but that's not in any way productive. 

OTOH, in any normal time, I would be surprised to see Howard extended, but things are so crazy right now. Maybe the people on the inside - Ono/Manuel - see some kind of major re-alignment coming down the pike in the next year or so, in which case maybe you don't want to make a new hire until the dust settles. I'd actually find it hard to believe if there were not a lot of informal networking and quiet discussions going on between groups of University Presidents and ADs about what kind of future they want to drive toward.

That's all pure speculation of course but just mention it as the kind of thing that may be driving top level decision making that we don't get much insight into.

normally i would agree with the "no point in firing him now" course of action.  however, howard was supposedly on a "double secret probation" with the only caveat being it wasnt very secret.  and he acted violently again.  and still nothing.

warde manuel never acts proactively about anything.  he sits around and waits for others to act.  the easiest course of action is to do nothing, and that's what he does.

they all knew harbaugh was leaving, did they act proactively to contact other potential coaches like other schools do?  i dont know, but i would be stunned if they did.  now they have a rookie head coach in charge of the school's jewel program and top money maker.

good luck.

they should be making contacts with represenatatives from top coaches right now.  the nate oates' of the world.  feeling them out.  a succession plan should already be in place.

with manuel, he's probably doing what he does best: sitting behind a desk doing nothing.  waiting for juwan's contract to run out, which is the worst thing for the program.

[MichiganCardinal]

3 hours ago, buddha said:

normally i would agree with the "no point in firing him now" course of action.  however, howard was supposedly on a "double secret probation" with the only caveat being it wasnt very secret.  and he acted violently again.  and still nothing.

warde manuel never acts proactively about anything.  he sits around and waits for others to act.  the easiest course of action is to do nothing, and that's what he does.

they all knew harbaugh was leaving, did they act proactively to contact other potential coaches like other schools do?  i dont know, but i would be stunned if they did.  now they have a rookie head coach in charge of the school's jewel program and top money maker.

good luck.

they should be making contacts with represenatatives from top coaches right now.  the nate oates' of the world.  feeling them out.  a succession plan should already be in place.

with manuel, he's probably doing what he does best: sitting behind a desk doing nothing.  waiting for juwan's contract to run out, which is the worst thing for the program.

I'm not sure they knew Jim was leaving. He always beat to his own drum, they probably didn't know for sure until he called and told them. That said, Warde absolutely lucked into Sherrone Moore. Off a National Championship, hiring a coach in January, there was not going to be a better candidate out there. Should he have had a plan for hiring a replacement after 2020, 2021, and 2022? Probably. And to your point, I doubt he did.

Now they're in a similar position, with the writing on the wall that you will need a new basketball coach at some point in the next 0-3 years. Even if you ignore this awful season, and ignore the off-the-court (and on-court) anger problems, the man recently had heart surgery. A contingency plan should be in place, and I agree that backdoor conversations should be being had. And I doubt they are.

Edited March 3 by MichiganCardinal

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I'm not sure they knew Jim was leaving. He always beat to his own drum, they probably didn't know for sure until he called and told them. That said, Warde absolutely lucked into Sherrone Moore. Off a National Championship, hiring a coach in January, there was not going to be a better candidate out there. Should he have had a plan for hiring a replacement after 2020, 2021, and 2022? Probably. And to your point, I doubt he did.

Now they're in a similar position, with the writing on the wall that you will need a new basketball coach at some point in the next 0-3 years. Even if you ignore this awful season, and ignore the off-the-court (and on-court) anger problems, the man recently had heart surgery. A contingency plan should be in place, and I agree that backdoor conversations should be being had. And I doubt they are.

If you want to talk about 'arrogance' at UM, this is the kind of place where it's probably most a factor. They feel anyone should want to come here so they shouldn't have to do a lot of spade work to prep the ground for a hire. All regular order:  Put out the listing, hire the search firm and wait for an XS of top names to just roll in.

And TBF, at the time there was conventional wisdom that Howard was very much in demand and that prying him away from the NBA was a bit of big deal.

[buddha]

2 hours ago, MichiganCardinal said:

I'm not sure they knew Jim was leaving. He always beat to his own drum, they probably didn't know for sure until he called and told them. That said, Warde absolutely lucked into Sherrone Moore. Off a National Championship, hiring a coach in January, there was not going to be a better candidate out there. Should he have had a plan for hiring a replacement after 2020, 2021, and 2022? Probably. And to your point, I doubt he did.

Now they're in a similar position, with the writing on the wall that you will need a new basketball coach at some point in the next 0-3 years. Even if you ignore this awful season, and ignore the off-the-court (and on-court) anger problems, the man recently had heart surgery. A contingency plan should be in place, and I agree that backdoor conversations should be being had. And I doubt they are.

there are lots of better candidates out there than sherrone moore.  the timeline prevented them from making a serious run at them, but there were lots of better candidates.

jedd fisch, dan lanning, kaleb deboer.  all had been taken by the time harbaugh made it official.

[MichiganCardinal]

15 minutes ago, buddha said:

there are lots of better candidates out there than sherrone moore.  the timeline prevented them from making a serious run at them, but there were lots of better candidates.

jedd fisch, dan lanning, kaleb deboer.  all had been taken by the time harbaugh made it official.

Even with them available I think it would have been fair to have landed on Moore off of a National Championship and four wins as interim, including over Penn State and Ohio State. The safe candidate isn't always the best candidate, but there is something to be said for the obvious candidate being the obvious candidate for a reason.

If Michigan got cute with it and hired Jason Candle (or a similar candidate), and Moore went on to be a 10-2 coach at UCLA, Michigan would have looked really stupid.

[gehringer_2]

49 minutes ago, MichiganCardinal said:

Even with them available I think it would have been fair to have landed on Moore off of a National Championship and four wins as interim, including over Penn State and Ohio State. The safe candidate isn't always the best candidate, but there is something to be said for the obvious candidate being the obvious candidate for a reason.

If Michigan got cute with it and hired Jason Candle (or a similar candidate), and Moore went on to be a 10-2 coach at UCLA, Michigan would have looked really stupid.

And with Moore, giving him the shot is possible high reward and pretty low risk. He may be the next great young coach.  if he isn't, it will be easy to move on, they aren't going to owe him $90M.

[buddha]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

And with Moore, giving him the shot is possible high reward and pretty low risk. He may be the next great young coach.  if he isn't, it will be easy to move on, they aren't going to owe him $90M.

you already have multiple examples of good young coaches.  hiring moore because it will be cheaper to fire him is an absolutely horrible way to do business.

it was cheap to fire brady hoke.

[gehringer_2]

1 hour ago, buddha said:

you already have multiple examples of good young coaches.  hiring moore because it will be cheaper to fire him is an absolutely horrible way to do business.

it was cheap to fire brady hoke.

LOL - Maybe horrible, but that's what they decided they wanted to do! IDK, after dealing with Harbaugh it's not hard to understand if they they were reluctant get behind the eight ball contractually with the next coach. It's maybe a poor play program wise but it's understandable human nature wise. 

Edited March 4 by gehringer_2

[Motor City Sonics]

Sorry, but if Warde doesn't fire Howard than they both MUST go.    Having to be physically restrained from attacking a trainer.   That sound normal to you?    Seems like the post-Wisco suspension and a heart scare didn't teach him a damn thing.   He can't control his temper.  He's a total embarrassment.    Know when to cut 'em loose.  We've seen too many times when the writing was on the wall (Patricia's pointless third year,  Brandon Staley coming back to the Chargers last year).  Cut and run.   Ain't workin' and it ain't gonna work and he just makes the university look like a joke, and that's not even talking about the record  (8-22 now?). 

[gehringer_2]

Something off about this story though. What Bacon has were apparently Sanderson's emails, and not the University's internal report? There are a couple of alternate possible scenarios - could be Sanderson had violated any number of his own conduct policies with Jace before Juwan got there and so had put his own gig in the crapper quite independently from what happened with Juwan as things progressed. Possibly the players would not corroborate Sanderson's version of the events - either because it wasn't true or because they just wanted to support their coach more than their trainer. Regardless of which,  from the U's standpoint you now have a contradicted narrative. 

It just seems that if Sanderson had such a cut and dried case, he wouldn't have slunk away in the night with it, he would have wanted public vindication.  Or maybe the U just wrote him a big enough check the make him go away. In any case, . just another example of big money high pressure sports generating crap you don't really need on a college campus.

Edited March 4 by gehringer_2

[buddha]

55 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Something off about this story though. What Bacon has were apparently Sanderson's emails, and not the University's internal report? There are a couple of alternate possible scenarios - could be Sanderson had violated any number of his own conduct policies with Jace before Juwan got there and so had put his own gig in the crapper quite independently from what happened with Juwan as things progressed. Possibly the players would not corroborate Sanderson's version of the events - either because it wasn't true or because they just wanted to support their coach more than their trainer. Regardless of which,  from the U's standpoint you now have a contradicted narrative. 

It just seems that if Sanderson had such a cut and dried case, he wouldn't have slunk away in the night with it, he would have wanted public vindication.  Or maybe the U just wrote him a big enough check the make him go away. In any case, . just another example of big money high pressure sports generating crap you don't really need on a college campus.

he got a settlement with a confidentiality provision in it.