2024 MLB Thread

[Hongbit]

There’s no doubt that the top negro league players would’ve not only played in MLB but also have been stars.  I wonder about the depth of talent and the overall competition level especially with the pitchers.  

My real issue is comparing numbers from a 50 game season to a 154 game season and treating them as the same.  I think that’s a hard thing to go good good on.  There are so many factors that differ when you have this big of a disparity over length of season.

Edited May 29 by Hongbit

[buddha]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Some would argue that  White Leagues prior to 1947 should not be mixed in with integration era leagues beause the competition level was lower. 

I say put all the stats out there and let fans and researchers decide what to do.  There will be American League Stats, National League stats and all the different Black leagues.  If someone wants to ignore the Black leagues, they can do so.

How inferior are the Black leagues?  Most assume they were inferior because the population of Blacks was smaller than the population of Whites, but Black teams had a better record in exhibitions between White and Black teams.  So, maybe not so inferior.  Nobody really knows.  

 

should we incorporate japanese league statistics into major league records too?  how about mexican league statistics?  

this is just an attempt to retroactively right a wrong that cannot be corrected.  the negro leagues were not "major league baseball" and cannot - and should not - be counted as major league baseball equivalent statistics.

[Tiger337]

36 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

There’s no doubt that the top negro league players would’ve not only played in MLB but also have been stars.  I wonder about the depth of talent and the overall competition level especially with the pitchers.  

My real issue is comparing numbers from a 50 game season to a 154 game season and treating them as the same.  I think that’s a hard thing to go good good on.  There are so many factors that differ when you have this big of a disparity over length of season.

They played more than 50 games, but the data are not available.  You need 162 innings or 502 plate appearances to qualify for titles, so the Black League players are not going to qualify for any single-season records anyway.  I'm not sure what records people are worried about.  

[Tiger337]

28 minutes ago, buddha said:

should we incorporate japanese league statistics into major league records too?  how about mexican league statistics?  

this is just an attempt to retroactively right a wrong that cannot be corrected.  the negro leagues were not "major league baseball" and cannot - and should not - be counted as major league baseball equivalent statistics.

The Japanese and Mexican Leagues are not MLB quality.  Crappy players who couldn't make it in the majors sometimes play there and become stars.  

The American and National Leagues were not major league baseball as we know it today either and they didn't fare that well against what you say was inferior competition.  My guess is that the Black leagues were slightly inferior due to the Black population being smaller, but I believe they were closer to Major Leagues than Minor Leagues.  There was an immense amount of talent in those leagues.  

one of the reasons segregation lasted so long was White players fear of losing their jobs.  

Edited May 29 by Tiger337

[oblong]

What problem is created by doing this?  Who does it harm?  There’s already so much disparity across eras anyway so this just adds another but big deal.  It rights a wrong that was deliberate. 

[Tenacious D]

Ty Cobb is gonna be pissed.  He was already a ****.

Edited May 29 by Tenacious D

[Tenacious D]

Old friends…

 

[Motor City Sonics]

9 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The Japanese and Mexican Leagues are not MLB quality.  Crappy players who couldn't make it in the majors sometimes play there and become stars.  

The American and National Leagues were not major league baseball as we know it today either and they didn't fare that well against what you say was inferior competition.  My guess is that the Black leagues were slightly inferior due to the Black population being smaller, but I believe they were closer to Major Leagues than Minor Leagues.  There was an immense amount of talent in those leagues.  

one of the reasons segregation lasted so long was White players fear of losing their jobs.  

Another thing is that stats were not as consistently kept.   Mainstream newspapers didn't cover the games.   The games were not generally all covered on the radio.   Black newspapers were shut down long ago and their archives were not protected.   Plus, teams would often "borrow" players from other teams.   If there was a team that was struggling, one of the power teams would lend a star player for a few games in the hopes it would draw more fans because it was in the league's best interest to keep teams going, even competetors.    Schedules were fairly inconsistent as some teams lacked the resources to travel.   Even in the later years , like 1945   Cleveland played 81 games,  KC played 96 games,  Birmingham 82, Chicago 101,  Cincinnati-Indy  97,  Memphis 88.    It's very hard to compare leagues.   I'm glad for the acknowledgement, but we can't go back and find that info.   All those moments are lost in time like......tears in rain.  

[buddha]

50 minutes ago, Tiger337 said:

The Japanese and Mexican Leagues are not MLB quality.  Crappy players who couldn't make it in the majors sometimes play there and become stars.  

The American and National Leagues were not major league baseball as we know it today either and they didn't fare that well against what you say was inferior competition.  My guess is that the Black leagues were slightly inferior due to the Black population being smaller, but I believe they were closer to Major Leagues than Minor Leagues.  There was an immense amount of talent in those leagues.  

one of the reasons segregation lasted so long was White players fear of losing their jobs.  

how do you know the japanese leagues were not major league quality?

the negro leagues were glorified barnstorming leagues for many years.  yes, they were of an inferior overall quality and the records kept were much spottier than in the mlb.

not sure what your last sentence is for, but in a way it encapsualtes why this change was made: because society wronged black people.  ok, but to change the record books to incorporate numbers from an inferior league is silly revisionist history, imo.

its like putting an asterix on barry bonds' records, like keeping pete rose out of the hall of fame.  its done to put a moralistic spin on the past and proclaim virtue in 2024.

 

[buddha]

46 minutes ago, oblong said:

What problem is created by doing this?  Who does it harm?  There’s already so much disparity across eras anyway so this just adds another but big deal.  It rights a wrong that was deliberate. 

it doesnt right a wrong.

[buddha]

46 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Ty Cobb is gonna be pissed.  He was already a ****.

https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies-c178601094

 

[Motor City Sonics]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

how do you know the japanese leagues were not major league quality?

the negro leagues were glorified barnstorming leagues for many years.  yes, they were of an inferior overall quality and the records kept were much spottier than in the mlb.

not sure what your last sentence is for, but in a way it encapsualtes why this change was made: because society wronged black people.  ok, but to change the record books to incorporate numbers from an inferior league is silly revisionist history, imo.

its like putting an asterix on barry bonds' records, like keeping pete rose out of the hall of fame.  its done to put a moralistic spin on the past and proclaim virtue in 2024.

 

Pete Rose bet on his own team as a manager and has never shown an ounce of remorse.  He's the very definition of "degenerate gambler".     I don't feel sorry for him.   He chose to piss it all away.   He thought he was so big they wouldn't do it.  They did.  And they should have. 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, Motor City Sonics said:

Pete Rose bet on his own team as a manager and has never shown an ounce of remorse.  He's the very definition of "degenerate gambler".     I don't feel sorry for him.   He chose to piss it all away.   He thought he was so big they wouldn't do it.  They did.  And they should have. 

ok.

[oblong]

38 minutes ago, buddha said:

it doesnt right a wrong.

It goes about as far as possible.  You can’t change the history of what happened but you can sort of welcome those guys into the club a little bit more by elevating their record.  It does nothing to alter anything going forward and nobody is being stripped of a title or accomplishment.   We don’t have to worry about integrity of the numbers. We aren’t doing financial auditing or messing with insurance actuarial tables.  It’s just sports and a record of what happened in US professional baseball at the highest levels for about 50 years.  It’s symbolic. Nobody’s pay is getting docked. It hurts nobody. People are just being contrarian to sound smart. 
 

I mentioned before avout reading Joe Posnanski’s book “top 100 players” or something like that. It was phenomenal and covered many negro leaguers and a common theme was… “they were good” as the chart above proves. Once more came into the AL and NL we saw the talent was legit.  Sure it may not have been deep but that runs both ways.  Many of the AL and NL stats prior to 1947 wouldn’t have been as high if they faced black players.  

[Tiger337]

19 minutes ago, buddha said:

how do you know the japanese leagues were not major league quality?

the negro leagues were glorified barnstorming leagues for many years.  yes, they were of an inferior overall quality and the records kept were much spottier than in the mlb.

not sure what your last sentence is for, but in a way it encapsualtes why this change was made: because society wronged black people.  ok, but to change the record books to incorporate numbers from an inferior league is silly revisionist history, imo.

its like putting an asterix on barry bonds' records, like keeping pete rose out of the hall of fame.  its done to put a moralistic spin on the past and proclaim virtue in 2024.

 

AAAA players regularly go to Japan and start slugging.  Most of the players that come from there do not play as well in MLB as they did here.  It is generally viewed by scouts as minor league quality, although it no doubt has talent.  Even if they are MLB quality, there really isn't a reason to incorporate their stats as a major league.  It does not have the same kind of connection to MLB that the Black leagues did.  Many many players in the Black Leagues would have been in the Major Leagues of their own country had they been allowed.  They SHOULD have been and WOULD have been part of the major leagues had they not been banned.  They should be recognized as major leaguers.  And they actually used the beat the White teams head to head more often than not.  

There is no asterisk on Bonds record.  He is the official home run leader according to MLB.com 

Pete Rose was kept out of the Hall of Fame because he broke the cardinal sin of baseball.  He deserved it, allthough now I don't care what happens to him since MLB is so shamelessly promoting gambling on the game every chance they get. 

 

[buddha]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

It goes about as far as possible.  You can’t change the history of what happened but you can sort of welcome those guys into the club a little bit more by elevating their record.  It does nothing to alter anything going forward and nobody is being stripped of a title or accomplishment.   We don’t have to worry about integrity of the numbers. We aren’t doing financial auditing or messing with insurance actuarial tables.  It’s just sports and a record of what happened in US professional baseball at the highest levels for about 50 years.  It’s symbolic. Nobody’s pay is getting docked. It hurts nobody. People are just being contrarian to sound smart. 

i am not being contrarian to sound smart, i disagree with what theyre doing for the reasons already stated.  

they didnt achieve their numbers playing major league baseball, so their numbers should not count as major league baseball records.  its quite simple.  

theyre stretching the truth to "right an historical wrong."  i dont think it does anything to right that wrong and i dont think they should stretch the truth.

reasonable minds can differ.

[buddha]

Just now, Tiger337 said:

AAAA players regularly go to Japan and start slugging.  Most of the players that come from there do not play as well in MLB as they did here.  It is generally viewed by scouts as minor league quality, although it no doubt has talent.  Even if they are MLB quality, there really isn't a reason to incorporate their stats as a major league.  It does not have the same kind of connection to MLB that the Black leagues did.  Many many players in the Black Leagues would have been in the Major Leagues of their own country had they been allowed.  They SHOULD have been and WOULD have been part of the major leagues had they not been banned.  They should be recognized as major leaguers.  And they actually used the beat the White teams head to head more often than not.  

There is no asterisk on Bonds record.  He is the official home run leader according to MLB.com 

Pete Rose was kept out of the Hall of Fame because he broke the cardinal sin of baseball.  He deserved it, allthough now I don't care what happens to him since MLB is so shamelessly promoting gambling on the game every chance they get. 

 

but they were banned and they didnt get the records in major league baseball.  so the records are not major league baseball records.

celebrate the negro leagues for being the negro leagues: a unique achievement in america's black community, forged out of exclusion from white society.  its a great accomplishment for them and a great shame on america's past.  but they werent major league baseball. you dont have to elevate them to something they were not because of america's history of racism.  and that's all this is.

plenty of japanese/asian players come to america and are exceptional, including the current best player in the game.  youre telling me that the japanese didnt have players who could have done the same earlier?  many japanese players did well against american barnstormers throughout history, so by your logic they would have done just as well in the major leagues.  so their records should count as major league records too.  

sadaharu oh is now the major league leader in home runs.

[oblong]

You realize that official MLB stats already contain other leagues besides the AL and NL? MLB for most of history was just a legal agreement between the two regarding items like # of games played and contract enforcements.  They were separate legal entities. 

[buddha]

19 minutes ago, oblong said:

You realize that official MLB stats already contain other leagues besides the AL and NL? MLB for most of history was just a legal agreement between the two regarding items like # of games played and contract enforcements.  They were separate legal entities. 

that's a really good point.  

i wouldnt count those either, but as long as they do it lends a little consistency to counting negro league statistics.

[Tiger337]

25 minutes ago, buddha said:

but they were banned and they didnt get the records in major league baseball.  so the records are not major league baseball records.

celebrate the negro leagues for being the negro leagues: a unique achievement in america's black community, forged out of exclusion from white society.  its a great accomplishment for them and a great shame on america's past.  but they werent major league baseball. you dont have to elevate them to something they were not because of america's history of racism.  and that's all this is.

plenty of japanese/asian players come to america and are exceptional, including the current best player in the game.  youre telling me that the japanese didnt have players who could have done the same earlier?  many japanese players did well against american barnstormers throughout history, so by your logic they would have done just as well in the major leagues.  so their records should count as major league records too.  

sadaharu oh is now the major league leader in home runs.

Yes, there are some great players from Japan, but not half the league's hitters like Blacks in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  Anyway, Japan is not America.  There are professional baseball leagues in a lot of different countries.  Are we supposed to recognize all of them as Major Leagues?

Americans were banned from the American Major League, so they started their own American major league and now it is finally being recognized as such.  I don't really understand why this is a problem for some people. 

 

 

[Tiger337]

13 minutes ago, buddha said:

that's a really good point.  

i wouldnt count those either, but as long as they do it lends a little consistency to counting negro league statistics.

Not a fan of 19th Centuury ball? 

[gehringer_2]

2 hours ago, buddha said:

celebrate the negro leagues for being the negro leagues: a unique achievement in america's black community, forged out of exclusion from white society.  its a great accomplishment for them and a great shame on america's past.  but they werent major league baseball. you dont have to elevate them to something they were not because of america's history of racism.  and that's all this is.

To me this there is a sense in which something this allows white society to paper over history, to be able put a gloss on the fact that those guy were not allowed to play. As you say - Stop looking for retroactive expiation - the wrong cannot be righted - period. Live with it. Dont hide it, don't bury it by "integrating" the stat sheets after the fact. Don't minimize it. Don't do it again.

Not the common way to see it I'm sure. YMMV

Edited May 29 by gehringer_2

[oblong]

5 hours ago, gehringer_2 said:

To me this there is a sense in which something this allows white society to paper over history, to be able put a gloss on the fact that those guy were not allowed to play. As you say - Stop looking for retroactive expiation - the wrong cannot be righted - period. Live with it. Dont hide it, don't bury it by "integrating" the stat sheets after the fact. Don't minimize it. Don't do it again.

Not the common way to see it I'm sure. YMMV

I have similar thoughts with regard to Jackie Robinson Day.  Nothing against him at all.  But by making it about him it appears to whitewash why we know his name so much. The focus is on his "achievement" rather than why it was necessary.  I don't know what they are supposed to do to be honestly other than just acknowledge it.  Don't say "he broke the color barrier" as if he was Chuck Yeager.  Use other words.

[chasfh]

9 hours ago, buddha said:

https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies-c178601094

 

I don’t buy Leershen’s hagiographical version of Cobb’s story. It was an intentional whitewash in many respects.

[oblong]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I don’t buy Leershen’s hagiographical version of Cobb’s story. It was an intentional whitewash in many respects.

Really?  I'd be interested in learning more.  Maybe he swung too far the other way but I'm sympathetic to the idea that Cobb was given harsher context due to the work of Al Stump and when you compare Cobb to his peers he's not such an evil caricature... unless you want to say all of them were.