2024 MLB Thread

[oblong]

Yeah it's wrong that Lou isn't it but that doesn't mean Sabathia shouldn't get in.

If Lou isn't on the next ballot he's eligible for then it's a real travesty.  He should have been on the last one.  The contemporary player ballot is set for December of 2025 so I'm suspecting Lou to be inducted in July of 2026.

 

[Tiger337]

Sabathia belongs.  Whitaker belongs too.  Being private does not help, but I think the main reason Whitaker is not in the Hall of Fame is because he  never had an elite season which is what people remember.  I don't believe there is any other player with 75 WAR who never had huge MVP or near MVP season.  What he did have was more very good years than almost any middle infielder ever.  His consistency and durability was truely remarkable and Hall of Fame worthy.    

[oblong]

He got dropped off the ballot the first year, which I think was just an oversight by the writers as it was a heavy year and many writers just don't like to vote for too many people.  That hurt him as he then didn't get a chance to at least get into the 40% on the regular ballot.  Trammell was dropped in 2016 and voted in 2018 on the committee.  Lou could have had a similar outcome.

He gets lots of love now and I will be pretty surprised if he doesn't make it.  Of course it all depends on the select few who decide who goes on the ballot, then the group who votes.  I assume that's how they still do it.  I haven't checked since they went down to just two era committees now.  He needs 12 of 16 votes.

 

[Motor City Sonics]

1 hour ago, Tiger337 said:

Sabathia belongs.  Whitaker belongs too.  Being private does not help, but I think the main reason Whitaker is not in the Hall of Fame is because he  never had an elite season which is what people remember.  I don't believe there is any other player with 75 WAR who never had huge MVP or near MVP season.  What he did have was more very good years than almost any middle infielder ever.  His consistency and durability was truely remarkable and Hall of Fame worthy.    

Mr. Consistency.   That's so important, though.    In his last 3 years he hit .295.     He was still productive until the end, even though he missed games and battled some injuries.        But we know why.   Writers are vindictive as hell and they took it out on him for not talking to them very much.     He just quietly did a great job for 19 years.  Not flashy.  He didn't need to be. 

[oblong]

My Amazon Photos app does a "this day in history" kind of thing and 4 years ago I took some screen shots of tweets where a guy made the case for Chet Lemon and the HOF.  He's got a decent argument.  Not saying he should be in but given the amount of attention others get I think he should also be in those discussions.  He was better than we remember relative to the other CF's.  Start from the bottom picture.  I couldn't control the order.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Motor City Sonics]

1 minute ago, oblong said:

My Amazon Photos app does a "this day in history" kind of thing and 4 years ago I took some screen shots of tweets where a guy made the case for Chet Lemon and the HOF.  He's got a decent argument.  Not saying he should be in but given the amount of attention others get I think he should also be in those discussions.  He was better than we remember relative to the other CF's.

 

 

If Chet played for the Yankees, he'd be in.    AND DON'T GIVE ME ANY OF THIS "THAT'S NOT TRUE" B.S.  You know it is.  

[gehringer_2]

3 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

Sabathia belongs.  Whitaker belongs too.  Being private does not help, but I think the main reason Whitaker is not in the Hall of Fame is because he  never had an elite season which is what people remember.  I don't believe there is any other player with 75 WAR who never had huge MVP or near MVP season.  What he did have was more very good years than almost any middle infielder ever.  His consistency and durability was truely remarkable and Hall of Fame worthy.    

Nailed it - exactly.

[papalawrence]

I've long felt Freehan should get more attention. His resume is very impressive. As important and Kaline, Horton, Lolich etc were, Freehan was a consistent rock for those teams

[oblong]

4 hours ago, papalawrence said:

I've long felt Freehan should get more attention. His resume is very impressive. As important and Kaline, Horton, Lolich etc were, Freehan was a consistent rock for those teams

Yes.  Especially relative to other catchers. I think he suffered in voting because later in his career and after we saw some very good catchers like Bench and Fisk and Munson, Carter, etc.   and he played in an offensively depressed era.  Not unlike Trammell with Ripken as a peer then later you get Nomar and ARod and Jeter redefining the position.  

[RandyMarsh]

Sabathia probably belongs but look at his numbers next to Cole Hamels who probably will be a one and done guy. 

 

[Tiger337]

7 hours ago, Motor City Sonics said:

If Chet played for the Yankees, he'd be in.    AND DON'T GIVE ME ANY OF THIS "THAT'S NOT TRUE" B.S.  You know it is.  

I don't think there is any evidence that playing for the Yankees helps somone get into the Hall of Fame.  Every team has some questionable players in the HoF including the Tigers - Morris and Kell.  

I don't think Lemon belongs, but I do agree he is underrated.  He is another one like Whitaker who never had a stand out season.  

[papalawrence]

I still scratch my head about Harold Baines. His career is mostly about longevity. Highest he ever ranked in mvp voting was 9th

[Tiger337]

I liked Harold Baines and wish he didn't become an example of a weak HoF, but he just was not a Hall of Fame talent.  He had an OPS+ of 100 or more 19 years in a row, which is impressive consistency and longevity, but a 121 career OPS+ is not nearly enough for an average corner outfielder.  Maybe, if he was a gold glove second baseman... 

[RandyMarsh]

One of my biggest gripes in recent HOF voting is how Johan Santana dropped off the ballot after one year. I hate defending a Twin but in the first decade of the 00s it was him and Halladay who were considered the best pitchers in baseball.  His career ERA+ of 136 is better than guys like Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux and even Sandy Koufax.

Now I have no problem with him not being in it, it's just the fact that he got so little support that baffles me. But then again I always put more emphasis on a player's prime than their total numbers. 

[chasfh]

10 hours ago, Tiger337 said:

I don't think there is any evidence that playing for the Yankees helps somone get into the Hall of Fame.  Every team has some questionable players in the HoF including the Tigers - Morris and Kell.  

I don't think Lemon belongs, but I do agree he is underrated.  He is another one like Whitaker who never had a stand out season.  

Even though he’s wearing Olde English on the plaque, I think Morris might have been put in by his peers mainly for his 1991 Game 7 with the Twins, although, also, they respected him while they were on the field together. His overall body of work is at best debatable, but even if his stats gives him a nudge over the bar, the writers were never going to put him in because reasons.

[chasfh]

31 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

One of my biggest gripes in recent HOF voting is how Johan Santana dropped off the ballot after one year. I hate defending a Twin but in the first decade of the 00s it was him and Halladay who were considered the best pitchers in baseball.  His career ERA+ of 136 is better than guys like Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux and even Sandy Koufax.

Now I have no problem with him not being in it, it's just the fact that he got so little support that baffles me. But then again I always put more emphasis on a player's prime than their total numbers. 

I have been wondering lately whether being Spanish-speaking Latin American hurts perception of such players in general, particularly from before the 2010s. I have lots of little data points in mind that make me wonder that.

[gehringer_2]

4 hours ago, papalawrence said:

I still scratch my head about Harold Baines. His career is mostly about longevity. Highest he ever ranked in mvp voting was 9th

It is ironic that Baines apparently got in on longevity only, yet as Lee points out, Whitaker doesn't get a nibble. I heard it said LaRussa had lobbied hard for Baines - I have no idea how much influence that accounted for. After Sparky passed there certainly wasn't anyone in ranks of Tiger management or FO with the stature to have much influence on voters - at least until Dombrowski, and I don't remember anything about DD being interested in Lou's HOF cause.

I don't know where the cut off should be, or if there needs to any kind of strict one, but I think we almost go overboard with cumulative counting stats now. I think if a player clearly dominates his position for 7-10 years that's a memorable and impactful player and I have no problem with players like that being voted in - which is exactly what should have gotten Freehan in.

[Tenacious D]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

It is ironic that Baines apparently got in on longevity only, yet as Lee points out, Whitaker doesn't get a nibble. I heard it said LaRussa had lobbied hard for Baines - I have no idea how much influence that accounted for. After Sparky passed there certainly wasn't anyone in ranks of Tiger management or FO with the stature to have much influence on voters - at least until Dombrowski, and I don't remember anything about DD being interested in Lou's HOF cause.

I don't know where the cut off should be, or if there needs to any kind of strict one, but I think we almost go overboard with cumulative counting stats now. I think if a player clearly dominates his position for 7-10 years that's a memorable and impactful player and I have no problem with players like that being voted in - which is exactly what should have gotten Freehan in.

LaRussa was on the committee that voted Baines in.  Kind of like a juror swaying his fellow jurors.

[casimir]

On 1/9/2025 at 8:22 PM, monkeytargets39 said:

I can see Nashville….beyond that…..maaaaybe San Antonio?

 

I don’t see Portland or Salt Lake City getting in it any time soon.

Nuuk?

[casimir]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:33 PM, Motor City Sonics said:

If Chet played for the Yankees, he'd be in.    AND DON'T GIVE ME ANY OF THIS "THAT'S NOT TRUE" B.S.  You know it is.  

Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams agree.

[Motor City Sonics]

15 minutes ago, casimir said:

Don Mattingly and Bernie Williams agree.

Bernie played classical guitar.  He's not a real man anyway.   Any man who likes jazz and classical music is a wimp.   Just ask Tony Siragusa.     And Don wouldn't shave his mustache.  He should be forever punished for that.   What a horrible example he set with that demon facial hair. 

Edited January 12 by Motor City Sonics

[casimir]

11 hours ago, RandyMarsh said:

One of my biggest gripes in recent HOF voting is how Johan Santana dropped off the ballot after one year. I hate defending a Twin but in the first decade of the 00s it was him and Halladay who were considered the best pitchers in baseball.  His career ERA+ of 136 is better than guys like Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux and even Sandy Koufax.

Now I have no problem with him not being in it, it's just the fact that he got so little support that baffles me. But then again I always put more emphasis on a player's prime than their total numbers. 

Thanks for bringing up Santana.  That was worth a trip to bbref.  I had forgotten how young he was when he retired.  Talk about a candle that burned brightly but flamed out quickly.

[Motor City Sonics]

22 hours ago, oblong said:

Yes.  Especially relative to other catchers. I think he suffered in voting because later in his career and after we saw some very good catchers like Bench and Fisk and Munson, Carter, etc.   and he played in an offensively depressed era.  Not unlike Trammell with Ripken as a peer then later you get Nomar and ARod and Jeter redefining the position.  

When he was in his prime, the scoring was extremely limited.   When you look at his numbers in 1967 .282/.389/.835 with 20 HR  and 1968  .263/.366/.835 with 25 HR  - for that era, that was impressive and he played in 155 games each year too.  Someone had to Catch that 31 game winner.       But again, he wasn't a very "exciting" player.   Just a very consistent and reliable one.    3 Top 10 MVP finishes, and if his own teammate didn't beat him out in 1968, he might have had a better shot.    He's a lot like Whitaker that way.    Always good and incredibly durable too.   5 Gold Gloves.  11 All Star Games.      

Edited January 12 by Motor City Sonics

[ben9753]

Embarrassing 

 

Edited January 12 by ben9753

[papalawrence]

When LAD signs Sasaki, they'll have added Ohtani, Yamamoto, Snell and Sasaki all via FA since December 2023. Adding 4 potential front end starters in 13 months. And they have Glasnow and should be returning Dustin May, Tony Gonsolin and perhaps Clayton Kershaw. And they have an elite bullpen. Better than the 1990s Braves? 

Edited January 14 by papalawrence