1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 5 minutes ago, oblong said: The parts in bold relate to each other.... Tampa got Paredes from us because Avila wasn't good at trades. So what you're telling us is Detroit is not allowed to make trades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 I'm getting really tired of everyone saying "You CAN'T do this and you CAN'T do that..." Seriously? Alex is 100% right. Harris needs to make trades where he sees it as appropriate for the Org. Otherwise, you're telling us we're NOT ALLOWED to trade for Malloy and NOT ALLOWED to trade for Lee. Seriously? Bull****. You guys are being contrarian just for the ****-sake of being contrarian. It's beyond annoying. Where we have holes... Harris has to have the ability to make a trade or sign a FA. That's it. That's the bottom line. To put together a contending team... Harris has to be able to put together a contending team. Being contrarian to that is simply being asinine. IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 3 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: So what you're telling us is Detroit is not allowed to make trades? yes they are allowed but when the other side is just as smart or smarter then they can be more difficult. I don't buy a magic bullet theory where Scott and his team have the ability to find a gem that other orgs don't know about. Most of the orgs are pretty smart, except Chicago. That's not a criticism but when you say AA wasn't a good GM and then use his trades where he sent over a good young player as proof that your new GM can acquire good players at any time..... that's kind of a contradiction unless Al Avila got a new job somewhere and you can snooker him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Just now, oblong said: yes they are allowed but when the other side is just as smart or smarter then they can be more difficult. I don't buy a magic bullet theory where Scott and his team have the ability to find a gem that other orgs don't know about... It does not have to be an unknown gem. It can be straight up talent for talent. Ore one Org has needs in one area while we have needs in a different area that matches up. There's no need to "Win" the trade or show up another Org. Ideally both teams win (getting what they need) but that doesn't always work hence the media fixation with "winning a trade". I'll give a different example: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander. We got what we wanted, what we needed... and Atlanta got what they wanted. Whether there was some winner in there (Atlanta wins on WAR... but Smoltz may have not developed in Detroit to that level...); or Detroit is simply satisfied with what Alexander provided that (and subsequent) seasons in 1987 and nothing else matters... We do not have to "WIN" a trade... we just need to get a player that we need or like and give up something else that the other team needs. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 20 minutes ago, casimir said: How do you know they didn't inquire on Hernandez? because why wouldnt you say we tried to sign X player? I think most fans would be happy if they thought the team was trying to get better but all we heard is dont expect much this past offseaon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I'm getting really tired of everyone saying "You CAN'T do this and you CAN'T do that..." Seriously? Alex is 100% right. Harris needs to make trades where he sees it as appropriate for the Org. Otherwise, you're telling us we're NOT ALLOWED to trade for Malloy and NOT ALLOWED to trade for Lee. Seriously? Bull****. You guys are being contrarian just for the ****-sake of being contrarian. It's beyond annoying. Where we have holes... Harris has to have the ability to make a trade or sign a FA. That's it. That's the bottom line. To put together a contending team... Harris has to be able to put together a contending team. Being contrarian to that is simply being asinine. IMO. they like Harris as a POBO but they dont think he cant make trades Edited June 7 by Toddwert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: It does not have to be an unknown gem. It can be straight up talent for talent. Ore one Org has needs in one area while we have needs in a different area that matches up. There's no need to "Win" the trade or show up another Org. Ideally both teams win (getting what they need) but that doesn't always work hence the media fixation with "winning a trade". I'll give a different example: John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander. We got what we wanted, what we needed... and Atlanta got what they wanted. Whether there was some winner in there (Atlanta wins on WAR... but Smoltz may have not developed in Detroit to that level...); or Detroit is simply satisfied with what Alexander provided that (and subsequent) seasons in 1987 and nothing else matters... We do not have to "WIN" a trade... we just need to get a player that we need or like and give up something else that the other team needs. That's it. and i'm arguing our system doesn't have enough of what other teams need to justify making that deal. Who in the system are you willing to sacrifice and what do you think they would net in return? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 4 minutes ago, oblong said: and i'm arguing our system doesn't have enough of what other teams need to justify making that deal. Who in the system are you willing to sacrifice and what do you think they would net in return? In other words... You want me to construct a trade for you just so you can shoot it down. No thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 1 minute ago, 1984Echoes said: In other words... You want me to construct a trade for you just so you can shoot it down. No thanks. exactly .... the Tigers do have a highly rated farm system but I guess no one wants them Edited June 7 by Toddwert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Just now, 1984Echoes said: In other words... You want me to construct a trade for you just so you can shoot it down. No thanks. the lack of those trades being made is what shoots it down. Scott isn't doing what you propose because other organizations dont want to. Think about what you are suggesting. Trades aren't being made. The possible reasons for that: 1) Scott doesn't want to. That assumes he took this job and the org made all these hires in the front office and change in staff but he's just being stubborn and doesn't want to improve the team in some sinister plot to make the team suffer because that looks great on a resume. 2) He's stupid and doesn't know how to do it 3) The teams are not seeing a fit in potential trade offers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 25 minutes ago, Toddwert said: because why wouldnt you say we tried to sign X player? I think most fans would be happy if they thought the team was trying to get better but all we heard is dont expect much this past offseaon Do teams do this? I think it was wise for the Tigers to add a RHH OF. I would have preferred CF, but that's tough to come by in free agency, plus they already had Vierling on the roster, so maybe CF wasn't that big of a deal. I'm fine with Canha. I don't recall the exactly, but I think he had a team option that Milwaukee wasn't going to pick up. I like that it's only a one year deal because I want to see Malloy promoted eventually. Perhaps among OF/DH they can roll out Greene, Carpenter, Meadows, and Malloy. There's still a need for RHH OF, but I think Vierling has improved his stock enough to count him in next season. And Perez has shown well so far also. So, I think they could reasonably have internal options for next season with a decent floor. I think if they were going to really impact the lineup, 3B would have been the target over last offseason, and still could be this season (maybe). And who knows, maybe Torkelson flames out and 1B becomes a concern, too. But, going back to Hernandez/Canha, they got themselves what they needed with Canha. I think the one year was better than multiple years. And we don't know if they reached out to Hernandez (or anyone else) or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 3 minutes ago, oblong said: the lack of those trades being made is what shoots it down. Scott isn't doing what you propose because other organizations dont want to. Think about what you are suggesting. Trades aren't being made. The possible reasons for that: 1) Scott doesn't want to. That assumes he took this job and the org made all these hires in the front office and change in staff but he's just being stubborn and doesn't want to improve the team in some sinister plot to make the team suffer because that looks great on a resume. 2) He's stupid and doesn't know how to do it 3) The teams are not seeing a fit in potential trade offers. 4. He's gunshy and doesnt want to screw up his first big job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 10 minutes ago, oblong said: and i'm arguing our system doesn't have enough of what other teams need to justify making that deal. Who in the system are you willing to sacrifice and what do you think they would net in return? In fairness, no one on this board is truly qualified and/or informed enough to answer that question. The point is, any and all information lies within the FO and among the research guys. It’s not information that any of us would have to make a truly informed decision. However, that doesn’t change the premise of the argument that it can be done and should be something that is being pursued. In anyone’s opinion, what is the most impactful trade Harris has made in any FO to date? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 I'll give a couple potential trade targets (I'm taking this info from another post I made in the May 14th game thread): Toronto - has a SS that they like a lot in Bo Bichette, 2021-23 WAR 14.4 although he's struggling a bit this year. They ALSO have a 23 y.o. SS Leo Jimenez in AAA with a .780 minors OPS and a .837 OPS this year in AAA. He would be a nice target... do we match up with Toronto in any way...? I hope Harris is at least looking into someone like this... whether or not he can actually get him... gotta take a shot, IMO. Houston - has 26 y.o. SS Jeremy Pena with 2022-24 WAR of 10.2. They ALSO have TWO 25 y.o. AAA SS's with a .790 minors OPS: Shay Whitcomb and a .720 minors OPS: Jesus Bastidas. Wouldn't at least one of these guys be available in trade? If Harris looks around, and tries to swing a deal... I would guess that he could land SOMEONE that might be an option at SS... even if they aren't an All-Star SS... who cares. A 2 WAR SS is a vast improvement over Javier Baez. I'm just sayin'... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 4a. Illitch doesn’t know east from west and Harris doesn’t feel any obligation to push any envelopes at this point. Illitch doesn’t involve himself in operations other than to look at the $$$. If that’s good, it’s all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 minute ago, 1776 said: 4a. Illitch doesn’t know east from west and Harris doesn’t feel any obligation to push any envelopes at this point. Illitch doesn’t involve himself in operations other than to look at the $$$. If that’s good, it’s all good. why risk anything when you can keep saying the teams not read yet to spend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 15 minutes ago, oblong said: the lack of those trades being made is what shoots it down. Scott isn't doing what you propose because other organizations dont want to. Think about what you are suggesting. Trades aren't being made. The possible reasons for that: 1) Scott doesn't want to. That assumes he took this job and the org made all these hires in the front office and change in staff but he's just being stubborn and doesn't want to improve the team in some sinister plot to make the team suffer because that looks great on a resume. 2) He's stupid and doesn't know how to do it 3) The teams are not seeing a fit in potential trade offers. Yeah... we KNOW trades aren't easy and it takes two to tango. That does NOT NEGATE the point that in order to build a contending team, Harris will have to have the ability to make trades/ FA signings that fill in holes. Unless you are disputing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 34 minutes ago, oblong said: and i'm arguing our system doesn't have enough of what other teams need to justify making that deal. Who in the system are you willing to sacrifice and what do you think they would net in return? Matt Manning for Leo Jimenez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Jack Flaherty for Colby Mayo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 4 minutes ago, Toddwert said: 4. He's gunshy and doesnt want to screw up his first big job It doesn't pass the smell test that someone would take a POBO and be gunshy or afraid to fail. Fans just have to see a conspiracy somewhere. Maybe the possible trades are ones he didn't think improved the org. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 18 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: I'll give a couple potential trade targets (I'm taking this info from another post I made in the May 14th game thread): Toronto - has a SS that they like a lot in Bo Bichette, 2021-23 WAR 14.4 although he's struggling a bit this year. They ALSO have a 23 y.o. SS Leo Jimenez in AAA with a .780 minors OPS and a .837 OPS this year in AAA. He would be a nice target... do we match up with Toronto in any way...? I hope Harris is at least looking into someone like this... whether or not he can actually get him... gotta take a shot, IMO. Houston - has 26 y.o. SS Jeremy Pena with 2022-24 WAR of 10.2. They ALSO have TWO 25 y.o. AAA SS's with a .790 minors OPS: Shay Whitcomb and a .720 minors OPS: Jesus Bastidas. Wouldn't at least one of these guys be available in trade? If Harris looks around, and tries to swing a deal... I would guess that he could land SOMEONE that might be an option at SS... even if they aren't an All-Star SS... who cares. A 2 WAR SS is a vast improvement over Javier Baez. I'm just sayin'... maybe he is looking into those guys and can't make a deal. POint is, he doesn't hold a press conference and announce his actions on trades not made. You guys are criticizing him for something that you only suspect isn't happening, without any proof. You have created this make believe caricature of Scott Harris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Or maybe some possible trades are... Yet to come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edman85 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Canha was a short fuse. Milwaukee was going to decline his option, so you either had to acquire him for a minor league reliever and pick up his option or fight with 28 other teams for his services. There was no option to wait around and see if you won the Teoscar sweepstakes. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1776 Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 8 minutes ago, Toddwert said: Jack Flaherty for Colby Mayo Have a conversation with Flaherty’s agent to see if an extension is possible. Personally, I would doubt so. But that’s part of due diligence of an organization head. Know where you stand prior to the deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oblong Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 14 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Yeah... we KNOW trades aren't easy and it takes two to tango. That does NOT NEGATE the point that in order to build a contending team, Harris will have to have the ability to make trades/ FA signings that fill in holes. Unless you are disputing that? real life is not a video game. When has he or anyone suggested that trades and FA signings won't happen. Just because they don't happen on your timeline doesn't mean the process is flawed. It's ****ing June 7 and the team is over .500 and everybody here acts like it's the 2003 Tigers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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