SoCalTiger Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 The “ calculated risk “ move is Skubal hard as it would be. He is a Boras client and we will not extend him at their price. He has two additional years of control and is currently at peak value. So I call Baltimore and entice their new owner with an opportunity to win it all this year while they still have Corbin Burnes and offer Skubes and Jung for Jackson Holiday and Colby Mayo both of which are blocked at the major league level with Gunner and Westbrrg. This solves the left side of our infield with player the same age and control as Max Clark, McGonigle , Briceno, Jobe, Colt Keith, Riley Greene and Olsen. Giving us a solid core of players in key up the middle positions on the cheap leaving $$$ to add pitching or what pushes us over the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatkoVarda Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 per Fangraphs, the WAR leaders at 3b include Isaac Paredes (1st), Matt Chapman (7th) and Willi Castro (9th). Not Harris fault that Paredes was traded; but Twins got Willi for nothing and he has given them over 4 WAR in 200 games. Harris signing Chapman was always the correct move; massive, massive failure to not get him The opportunities are out there; Harris either does not see them; does not care; or cannot act out of fear of failure. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 1 hour ago, RatkoVarda said: per Fangraphs, the WAR leaders at 3b include Isaac Paredes (1st), Matt Chapman (7th) and Willi Castro (9th). Not Harris fault that Paredes was traded; but Twins got Willi for nothing and he has given them over 4 WAR in 200 games. Harris signing Chapman was always the correct move; massive, massive failure to not get him The opportunities are out there; Harris either does not see them; does not care; or cannot act out of fear of failure. Chapman is a pretty good ball player, but he has some real holes in his offense to where he doesn’t fit the profile of the hitter Harris covets. He is going to wait and get the player he wants, not the one you think is an upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4hzglory Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 4 minutes ago, Longgone said: Chapman is a pretty good ball player, but he has some real holes in his offense to where he doesn’t fit the profile of the hitter Harris covets. He is going to wait and get the player he wants, not the one you think is an upgrade. And I think the draft pick was a very large factor against Chapman who had an awful year last year after the first month or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, Longgone said: he doesn’t fit the profile of the hitter Harris covets. Regardless of any particular case, if looking for the players that fit your system mean you pass on other good players that can help you win, you are putting system over success and that would be a pretty dumb approach. Systems don't win games, good players do. It's perfectly fine to use a system in development because you think it helps improve your odds of producing good players, but given a good player, you should never hold his style against him if he performs. No system works for every player and to exclude good players you may be able to get is purely counterproductive. Edited June 8 by gehringer_2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Longgone Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 30 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said: Regardless of any particular case, if looking for the players that fit your system mean you pass on other good players that can help you win, you are putting system over success and that would be a pretty dumb approach. Systems don't win games, good players do. It's perfectly fine to use a system in development because you think it helps improve your odds of producing good players, but given a good player, you should never hold his style against him if he performs. No system works for every player and to exclude good players you may be able to get is purely counterproductive. In Chapmans case, with his swing and miss, I can see why teams passed on him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 2 hours ago, Longgone said: Chapman is a pretty good ball player, but he has some real holes in his offense to where he doesn’t fit the profile of the hitter Harris covets. He is going to wait and get the player he wants, not the one you think is an upgrade. Harris has impressed me with his ability to identify good pitchers, not so much with hitters so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 4 hours ago, SoCalTiger said: The “ calculated risk “ move is Skubal hard as it would be. He is a Boras client and we will not extend him at their price. He has two additional years of control and is currently at peak value. So I call Baltimore and entice their new owner with an opportunity to win it all this year while they still have Corbin Burnes and offer Skubes and Jung for Jackson Holiday and Colby Mayo both of which are blocked at the major league level with Gunner and Westbrrg. This solves the left side of our infield with player the same age and control as Max Clark, McGonigle , Briceno, Jobe, Colt Keith, Riley Greene and Olsen. Giving us a solid core of players in key up the middle positions on the cheap leaving $$$ to add pitching or what pushes us over the top. That’s kind’of a fun proposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 3 hours ago, RatkoVarda said: per Fangraphs, the WAR leaders at 3b include Isaac Paredes (1st), Matt Chapman (7th) and Willi Castro (9th). Not Harris fault that Paredes was traded; but Twins got Willi for nothing and he has given them over 4 WAR in 200 games. Harris signing Chapman was always the correct move; massive, massive failure to not get him The opportunities are out there; Harris either does not see them; does not care; or cannot act out of fear of failure. The Tigers have traded away Paredes, Candelario, and Castro. Those would be nice bats for 3B, 1B, and a utility player this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 21 minutes ago, Longgone said: In Chapmans case, with his swing and miss, I can see why teams passed on him. Even with the swing and miss, he has performed with remarkable consistency throughout his career and this year he is again the same player. The concern with him was his age and the thought that he would require a 5-6 year contract. It turned out that that contract length was not needed, although we don't know whether he was intrested in the Tigers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Fire sale of anyone decent heading out soon. Bye Flaherty, bye Skubal....that would be about anyone who is decent or above Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 4 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Even with the swing and miss, he has performed with remarkable consistency throughout his career and this year he is again the same player. The concern with him was his age and the thought that he would require a 5-6 year contract. It turned out that that contract length was not needed, although we don't know whether he was intrested in the Tigers. I think his 2023 also played into it. He had that incredible start, but kind of floundered from there. Most ball players have their ups and downs. I kind of wonder if he hadn’t had such a see saw type of season, would he have had a more favorable free agency? I would think so despite the other concerns, but who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious D Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 hours ago, casimir said: The Tigers have traded away Paredes, Candelario, and Castro. Those would be nice bats for 3B, 1B, and a utility player this season. We let Candy and Castro walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toddwert Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Harris has impressed me with his ability to identify good pitchers, not so much with hitters so far. can we have a Hitting POBO and a Pitching POBO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 10 minutes ago, Tenacious D said: We let Candy and Castro walk. I will admit that I was surprised Castro managed to get himself to adequate as an OF after as bad as he looked there when the Tigers decided to try him there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 4 hours ago, Tiger337 said: Harris has impressed me with his ability to identify good pitchers, not so much with hitters so far. Vierling, Canha, Malloy, and Hao Yu Lee would like a word with you. And if you're talking about minor leaguers and not just trade acquisitions: McGonigle and Clark would also like a word. 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeattleMike Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said: I will admit that I was surprised Castro managed to get himself to adequate as an OF after as bad as he looked there when the Tigers decided to try him there. He has played most of his games at 3rd, where he has been above average as a defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 31 minutes ago, SeattleMike said: He has played most of his games at 3rd, where he has been above average as a defender. which is also surprising as he did not show much in the way of soft hands as a SS in Det. Willi just happens to be the exception to the rule that guy's at 25+ don't usually improve their foundational fielding skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger337 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 41 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said: Vierling, Canha, Malloy, and Hao Yu Lee would like a word with you. And if you're talking about minor leaguers and not just trade acquisitions: McGonigle and Clark would also like a word. 😉 Malloy, Lee, McGonigle and Clark have done nothing in the majors so far, so we can't that he found value in them when others didn't. Canha was already good before he came to the Tigers. The only one you could maybe say that Harris identified as a good player when others didn't value him as much is Vierling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tiger337 said: Malloy, Lee, McGonigle and Clark have done nothing in the majors so far, so we can't that he found value in them when others didn't. Canha was already good before he came to the Tigers. The only one you could maybe say that Harris identified as a good player when others didn't value him as much is Vierling. and an additional irony is that Vierling's OBP has dropped despite improving his OPS. He's under 5% walk rate this season so the guy is succeeding, such as he is, but doing it pretty much in contradiction to the grand plan. Edited June 9 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger2022 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, 1984Echoes said: Vierling, Canha, Malloy, and Hao Yu Lee would like a word with you. And if you're talking about minor leaguers and not just trade acquisitions: McGonigle and Clark would also like a word. 😉 Am I missing part of the season? Malloy has 2 career hits, Lee has zero. Canha has a .720 OPS. Vierling is a 4th outfielder. If you are using these as your examples of amazing hitters, your argument is super weak to non existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gehringer_2 Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 (edited) 6 hours ago, tiger2022 said: Am I missing part of the season? Malloy has 2 career hits, Malloy's issue is going to be exactly what you could have guessed by what he did at AAA. His K zone judgement is indeed impeccable. But it's not enough just to let the the bad ones go by, he has to prove he can hit it when they throw him strikes. Bottom line not really much different from Tork's issue. You can't succeed in the majors waiting for what you want to hit, granted you can't hit everything, but the more of K zone you can at least defend, if not hit, the more success is available. Edited June 9 by gehringer_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casimir Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 11 hours ago, Tenacious D said: We let Candy and Castro walk. Yes, you're right. I errored there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 9 hours ago, tiger2022 said: ... If you are using these as your examples of amazing hitters... Show me where I said "amazing hitters". The question was: Can Harris identify (or not) hitters? I believe they qualify as hitters. At least adequate. No one said anything about amazing. But if you're looking for amazing, that's going to take a long time because Clark and McGonigle were just drafted, and are still 19. All of the others are just "useful bats" plus or minus. But then... A team could use "useful bats" just as much as amazing hitters, especially when that team is the current version of the Detroit Tigers. And since this is a transition year... it doesn't matter that Malloy has 2 MLB games and Lee 0... It's can they succeed in MLB? It's the only question that matters this year. And that's true not for just Malloy & Vierling, but also Spencer Torkelson, Colt Keith, Parker Meadows, Matt Manning, Casey Mize, Alex Lange, Wenceel Perez, Dillon Dingler, Riley Greene, etc... Every one of these guys (not just the hitters either, pitchers too) have to prove that they can stick in MLB (I put Dingler in there because I think he will get his chances this year); and not just stick, but thrive to an adequate or even better level. I even put Greene in there because I expect MUCH more from him than what I've been seeing this year... You can yap all you want about "Malloy's 2 games"... I don't give a crap about that. The only thing I care about is can he cut it, or not? And that's yet to be determined. But he proved himself a good hitter in the minors, so I am ALLOWED to hold onto that, until he proves otherwise in MLB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1984Echoes Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 Let me restate one thing... where I'm talking about "useful hitters": Harris has to identify the superstars for the next Tigers playoff team. Whether that's Greene, Clark, Jobe, Skubal... whomever. I don't think a team has a real chance if they are entirely built of platoon players. So yes... some amazing pitchers and hitters. But also, the entire team won't consist of amazing pitchers and hitters, from top to bottom because... well, that's just a little bit hard to do. So, outside of whatever stars we can add to this team... Harris will ALSO need to be able to find all the: "Useful hitters" and "useful pitchers" that flesh out a complete team. They are needed. I don't get the badmouthing of Vierling because he's a 4th OF'er. That is still needed on a playoff contending team. So why say anything about Vierling... except that he's a useful player/ useful bat. He's not the problem. He's doing his job and he's doing a fine job. It's the OTHER problems on this team, the "weak links", that need to be rectified. IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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