2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[alex]

6 hours ago, kdog said:

Good post.

Thanks. I appreciate the serious (and true) fans that are all here. We all have our thoughts and opinions. These (and more) are my observations so far of the current regime.

[alex]

1 hour ago, IdahoBert said:

This is really thoughtful and it took a lot of time. Thanks for doing it.

Thank you sir 🙏

[Sports_Freak]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I’m still haven’t been  convinced by anyone the last year or so who exactly Harris should have signed or traded for (and with that?).  There isn’t a GM store with items you need.  You can’t trade a lot of crap for something mediocre. 

JD Martinez was out there awhile. I know Hinch like to use the DH to rest guys but the Tigers had a questionable offense and JD could have won us a few games. The Tigers weren't in on any free agents, but trades? We have no idea if Harris worked on any trades for a quality player. He prolly was told to keep the payroll down. At least, that would be my guess.

[alex]

2 hours ago, oblong said:

I’m still haven’t been  convinced by anyone the last year or so who exactly Harris should have signed or traded for (and with that?).  There isn’t a GM store with items you need.  You can’t trade a lot of crap for something mediocre. 

I do agree. Yet, it is the job of the front office to identify and trade for players that perhaps another team is 'not' valuing as high in regards. There are many examples of this. I could research and come up with a good list. Two years ago Tampa got IParedes as one good example.

I am not advocating trading a lot of crap based on players of 'what are you doing for me now' per say judgement. Teams have different ways of judging talent.  Some teams may value Ty Madden or Justice Bigbie or Max Anderson, etc.  You create a small package and 'get the guy' you feel may be on the cusp. That is good scouting. Having a real eye for talent. Maybe that player is blocked by another good young player or two in that same orginization (agai the LAD and Baltimore come to mind).

SHarris wants only players that 'control the zone' so to speak. Maybe other teams are not as much into that idea. Maybe SHarris needs to make an exception to that profile a time or two. It simply cannot work for everyone.

Point again being SHarris/the FO can acquire a good young player (or one that will be) at any time. No payroll restriction. No big time FA contract. No need to trade only your best prospects per say to do it. Identify, know the other teams wishes (no do not get fleeced) and do it. This is what I am looking to see - can SHarris, this FO do these type of deals. Do they have this 'moxie'?!? This will determine a lot moving forward. If he does not have the ability to make deals (even with a FA) - well then - the baton will be passed on and that will not bode well for fans as we 'rebuild' again.

[buddha]

as "mid" as the tigers are, take a moment and laugh at how historically bad the chicago white sox are right now.

theyre down 13-1 and about to lose their 14th straight game.

Edited June 7 by buddha

[Motor City Sonics]

I hope the White Sux let the 1962 Mets off the hook.    I mean, they were an expansion team in an era when expansion teams didn't get nearly the breaks they do now.  At least they had an excuse. 

[casimir]

10 hours ago, oblong said:

I’m still haven’t been  convinced by anyone the last year or so who exactly Harris should have signed or traded for (and with that?).  There isn’t a GM store with items you need.  You can’t trade a lot of crap for something mediocre. 

The free agency thing is where the lack of response, how shall I say....., the silent response speaks out loud.

Trades are a bit more difficult to come up with scenarios.  Much like free agency, you have two parties that have to agree with each other.  Its just not always as easy to see where teams line up there priorities and valuation in order to think of trades that could be made.

[casimir]

16 hours ago, alex said:

Drafting and development: This needs to take place and is number one with putting together a mid to small market team. I/we hope this has and is getting better...

My point is once again, acquiring good players needs to take place. Not all will be through drafting and development and certainly SHarris is not a big FA type GM (and maybe for good reason). Good players can be added through trades. Some of it is luck and the most under rated aspect is injuries. They are always there, hence depth, especially with pitching, is a must.

They've got to be well under way with this aspect.  It might be a few years before seeing the impact of players that they've both drafted and had time to develop.  But we should see a few players that were already in the minors before Harris' time bubble up (whether they'd been drafted by the Tigers or acquired via trade or minor league free agency or however).  That's not to say the minor leagues are as full of prospects as they should be.  But the infrastructure should be in place and operable.

[1984Echoes]

17 hours ago, alex said:

 

All IMHO, I have been saying for some time SHarris (and the current regime) have to start adding the right pieces yesterday. This 'core group' thing is just kicking the can down the road. All GMs have the job to not only identify what the team will look like now, but two years from now and further.

Current Team: they have to be able to tell what players fit. They have been evaluating now for 1 1/2 yrs. It does not have to be conclusive, but a good idea should be there and if not - the wrong people are in charge. The other players then can be potentially dealt if better value can come back (in their eyes).

Trades: Here is where some things can be done 'now'. They do not have to wait. Identify a player(s) they like and get one or two. You do not have to trade your top 4-5 prospects per say to get a player on a team that is young but his position is blocked (see LAD, Balt., etc.) and/or another MLB decent player who a team may wish to rid ex expiring contract, etc.

IF we do not think Mize, Manning, Tork, Baddoo, etc. are not 'core' players then I bet there are teams out there willing to take some of these under their wing.

I would like to see a value for value trade. Perhaps we see someone who we feel can help us out, who is in the same boat on another team - then we can use that phrase 'come here and get better' . Prove it.

A good GM can identify and make trades. We need to find a Carlos Guillen, JD Martinez, Doug Fister, GSheffield, etc. type. Sure not all will work out, but some players have to be obtained this route... So far? Maybe Vierling, Lee, JHM. Yet, (a lot more versatile INF types who seemingly 'work the count': Kennedy, Maton, Rizzo, Skolak, Nevin, etc. have not worked).

No it is not easy but a good GM can do this.

Free agents: I do not think you can just say, 'OK we are pretty good right now and we need to add a player' then all of a sudden a particular player becomes a free agent. FAs are random. Just because we need 'X' does not mean 2-3 are ready for the taking - or that position is even strong in FA at that time. Besides other teams have interest AND Comerica is not a great sell for offensive type FAs (pay or not - the good ones can often choose).

That is why trades are so important. Identify and go after.

To me it does not seem this team is really interested any FA players to long term deals (maybe not even their own-yikes) - and I actually agree here probably 90% especially SPs. SHarris has a track record of short term deals. Incentive type deals. Ps that are the rebound (did this at SF as well).

Sometimes this may work ex Rodon & Cobb ('22), Lorenzen ('23) and so far Flaherty ('24) and sometimes not Junis & Boyd ('22), Boyd ('23) and so far Maeda ('24 & '25). Its a crap shot and 50% is not bad really. Here the front office needs to identify and then have ownership's backing. AA got this far, then FA failures and injuries prevailed. IMHO, AA did not have anywhere close to the right development people for most of his GM tenure, then what little he did later was too late (ex AJ and Garko). SHarris seems to understand the FA aspect part of this.

Drafting and development: This needs to take place and is number one with putting together a mid to small market team. I/we hope this has and is getting better...

My point is once again, acquiring good players needs to take place. Not all will be through drafting and development and certainly SHarris is not a big FA type GM (and maybe for good reason). Good players can be added through trades. Some of it is luck and the most under rated aspect is injuries. They are always there, hence depth, especially with pitching, is a must.

My Humble Conclusion: I would like to see SHarris (JGreenberg and this group) find some 'gold nuggets' with a couple of trades. My biggest point is there is no need to wait here. This can happen at any time. Find the players. If he cannot do this - then he/his group is only going to be 'holding up the bridge' for the next regime - who will want 'time' to rebuild and give us their rendition of 'the plan'. ; )  Go Tigs!

Beautiful! Well said and I'm in 100% agreement.

[oblong]

10 hours ago, alex said:

I do agree. Yet, it is the job of the front office to identify and trade for players that perhaps another team is 'not' valuing as high in regards. There are many examples of this. I could research and come up with a good list. Two years ago Tampa got IParedes as one good example.

I am not advocating trading a lot of crap based on players of 'what are you doing for me now' per say judgement. Teams have different ways of judging talent.  Some teams may value Ty Madden or Justice Bigbie or Max Anderson, etc.  You create a small package and 'get the guy' you feel may be on the cusp. That is good scouting. Having a real eye for talent. Maybe that player is blocked by another good young player or two in that same orginization (agai the LAD and Baltimore come to mind).

SHarris wants only players that 'control the zone' so to speak. Maybe other teams are not as much into that idea. Maybe SHarris needs to make an exception to that profile a time or two. It simply cannot work for everyone.

Point again being SHarris/the FO can acquire a good young player (or one that will be) at any time. No payroll restriction. No big time FA contract. No need to trade only your best prospects per say to do it. Identify, know the other teams wishes (no do not get fleeced) and do it. This is what I am looking to see - can SHarris, this FO do these type of deals. Do they have this 'moxie'?!? This will determine a lot moving forward. If he does not have the ability to make deals (even with a FA) - well then - the baton will be passed on and that will not bode well for fans as we 'rebuild' again.

I think other teams are pretty smart too and have also gotten better at evaluating prospects over the last 15 years especially, which makes the prospect for ML talent deals rarer, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think we see them as often today as we used to.  I reject that they can acquire a good young player at will as you suggest.  The other team has to be willing to give that player to the Tigers and the only reason they'd do so is if the Tigers had something to offer to make them want to do that.  And if the Tigers had something to offer then why are they making the deal?   It takes two orgs to agree on a trade and overall fans think their own teams have the upper hand and can make trades like it's a video game.   Who in the system should the Tigers have moved to get a good player?

[Toddwert]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

The free agency thing is where the lack of response, how shall I say....., the silent response speaks out loud.

Trades are a bit more difficult to come up with scenarios.  Much like free agency, you have two parties that have to agree with each other.  Its just not always as easy to see where teams line up there priorities and valuation in order to think of trades that could be made.

because  if you throw out at name it gets nit picked to death as if the Tigers have an All star lineup that cant get better without it being Ohtani or Soto.... I'll throw out a name Teoscar Hernandez.... let the nit picks begin!!!!

[1776]

8 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

because  if you throw out at name it gets nit picked to death as if the Tigers have an All star lineup that cant get better without it being Ohtani or Soto.... I'll throw out a name Teoscar Hernandez.... let the nit picks begin!!!!

 not nit picking…

Out of curiosity I looked up his contract. The Dodgers even deferred this contract! 

Teoscar Hernandez finalized a one-year, $23.5-million US contract with the Dodgers in January, the latest deal by big-spending Los Angeles that includes deferred money. The outfielder agreed to defer $8.5 million that will be paid in 10 equal installments each July 1 from 2030-39.

[Toddwert]

2 minutes ago, 1776 said:

 not nit picking…

Out of curiosity I looked up his contract. The Dodgers even deferred this contract! 

Teoscar Hernandez finalized a one-year, $23.5-million US contract with the Dodgers in January, the latest deal by big-spending Los Angeles that includes deferred money. The outfielder agreed to defer $8.5 million that will be paid in 10 equal installments each July 1 from 2030-39.

yeah offer him 2 or 3 years and no deffered might have got him interested

[Tenacious D]

14 hours ago, oblong said:

I’m still haven’t been  convinced by anyone the last year or so who exactly Harris should have signed or traded for (and with that?).  There isn’t a GM store with items you need.  You can’t trade a lot of crap for something mediocre. 

I think we had a lot of trade capital—coming into this season, we were consistently ranked as a top 10 farm system, with multiple players in the top 100. Heck, we traded a AA reliever who wasn’t in our top 25 rankings for Canha.  We just have to be willing to trade prospects, which I would support, for the right player(s).  We’re also in a good position to take on payroll, if a team is trying to address that.

[tiger2022]

I don't think winning is a priority for the owner.  Just keep the payroll down and turn a profit.  

I expect flaherty to be traded by the deadline this season and Skubal to be traded by the deadline of next year.  

I am on the verge on not caring ever again.  

Mike Ilitch ruined my enjoyment of baseball by running out such a garbage product out during the 90s when I was growing up.  Now Chris is doing the same thing .

[kdog]

In the Harris/Ilitch team building model, they need a constant stream of players coming up from the minors...think Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa. But what happens if there is a gap in player development or if a top draft pick falters?

How do you fix the holes on your roster if free agency isn't on the table? (Free agency is imperfect...you are often overpaying for bums who are past their prime)

Edited June 7 by kdog

[alex]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

I think other teams are pretty smart too and have also gotten better at evaluating prospects over the last 15 years especially, which makes the prospect for ML talent deals rarer, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think we see them as often today as we used to.  I reject that they can acquire a good young player at will as you suggest.  The other team has to be willing to give that player to the Tigers and the only reason they'd do so is if the Tigers had something to offer to make them want to do that.  And if the Tigers had something to offer then why are they making the deal?   It takes two orgs to agree on a trade and overall fans think their own teams have the upper hand and can make trades like it's a video game.   Who in the system should the Tigers have moved to get a good player?

When I say anytime it does not mean you think of a trade and make it in an instant. You know this of course. You look at players over time (scouting, project-ability, etc.). Not every team evaluates the exact same the way with their priorities ex 'control the zone' may have priority over 'raw talent' for the Tigers, etc.

I refer back to the one trade I mentioned (there have been many). Tampa did not just look at Paredes one day and say 'get him'. They looked over time, saw something, we may not have evaluated him the same way. When Greene went down, we asked about AMeadows and - wholla a deal was done. They evaluated Paredes, had a different view than what we did. I am not saying for better or worse, the point is - it was different. Then you throw in teams looking to shed some payroll (as tenacious D mentions below) as Tampa was. The deal itself may have taken time as far as Tampa was concerned. To us the fans it came out of nowhere. This is what I mean. Anytime a deal can get done.

The Tigers can do the same thing at anytime. They may be doing so right now. They should be identifying, being realistic and taking 'some' actions ( a priority list, project-ability, finding out how coachable, etc.). SHarris has been with Detroit 1 1/2 years now. He was with SF and the Cubs before that.

My question still is 'does this FO, SHarris, JGreenberg, etc. have the ability to acquire via Trades talented players? Do they have the ability to negotiate deals? It does not take an extensive amount of time to do this. Either you have this savy (ex ability to negotiate, bluff, be up front, play poker, etc.) or you do not. If you have some inclination for it you might be able to develop it to an extent.

IMHO, AA did not have this, yet DD before him did. Does this group (in particular SHarris) have it? They are not rookies here. If they do not have the ability to work deals, then just drafting and developing (the most important aspect of course) can only go so far. Yes, ownership can back the FO (and it did with AA and DD) - but they still may have to negotiate against other teams for good FAs and more importantly negotiate/work trades. IF this FO cannot we may be in for another rebuild during another FO changeover. I am hoping this regime has 'some' ability here.

27 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

I think we had a lot of trade capital—coming into this season, we were consistently ranked as a top 10 farm system, with multiple players in the top 100. Heck, we traded a AA reliever who wasn’t in our top 25 rankings for Canha.  We just have to be willing to trade prospects, which I would support, for the right player(s).  We’re also in a good position to take on payroll, if a team is trying to address that.

Yes, we need to be able to trade some of our prospects (I once again and am not saying the top 5 or so). Some teams may value some of our prospects higher than we do (see above). We as fans do not have the same 'reference' material as a good FO does. Yes, all FO have data - but the point is they may not all have the same valuation profiles.

We can make deals and acquire players. We are getting to the point, if our players stay healthy - and with P that is a big 'if' - that we will soon start to see whom we may acquire either as 'sellers or buyers' (or even both). The time is coming. IMHO, this 'core identification' idea is simply a way to stay 'idle' and buy time on the job. Where are those 'calculated risks' ?

Identify a list, go after, take a risk (on a younger appealing player or expiring contract) - and negotiate the deal(s). I remain steadfast. It can happen at anytime - if the FO has this ability. We shall see and it should not take 2 more years to find this out as we wait for another 'core' or 'the core' to develop.

[alex]

3 hours ago, 1984Echoes said:

Beautiful! Well said and I'm in 100% agreement.

Thank you.

Your posts and that of many others are/is appreciated.

[TigerNation]

50 minutes ago, kdog said:

In the Harris/Ilitch team building model, they need a constant stream of players coming up from the minors...think Cleveland, Milwaukee, Tampa. But what happens if there is a gap in player development or if a top draft pick falters?

How do you fix the holes on your roster if free agency isn't on the table? (Free agency is imperfect...you are often overpaying for bums who are past their prime)

Fortunately for us we know that free agency is on the table, and our owner has proven he's willing to spend big enough to acquire quality players in FA. Now whether the players end up being quality signings will depend on Harris.

[casimir]

3 hours ago, Toddwert said:

because  if you throw out at name it gets nit picked to death as if the Tigers have an All star lineup that cant get better without it being Ohtani or Soto.... I'll throw out a name Teoscar Hernandez.... let the nit picks begin!!!!

Where would Teoscar Hernandez fit in amongst an OF of Greene, Meadows (who at the time was assumed to be the starting CF until his bat disappeared), Carpenter, Vierling, and Canha (who was traded for in early November)?

Not nitpicking, but his SO% and BB% are not good.  And throw in that it looked like he might be declining in 2023, although it could very well have been a one year thing.

[casimir]

2 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

I think we had a lot of trade capital—coming into this season, we were consistently ranked as a top 10 farm system, with multiple players in the top 100. Heck, we traded a AA reliever who wasn’t in our top 25 rankings for Canha.  We just have to be willing to trade prospects, which I would support, for the right player(s).  We’re also in a good position to take on payroll, if a team is trying to address that.

I definitely agree with you about the good position to take on payroll.

[Toddwert]

you dont get Canha knowng your trying to get Hernandez and if you dont get him you try to trade for Canha or look at whose available in FA. I just  didnt think it was a great idea throw a bunch young guys in the deep end and tell them to swim which turns out I was right.... you have a bunch vets and mix in the young guys  and then trade the vets when it seems like the young guys can handle it. 

[1984Echoes]

2 hours ago, kdog said:

... But what happens if there is a gap in player development or if a top draft pick falters?

How do you fix the holes on your roster if free agency isn't on the table? ...

You trade Austin Meadows for Isaac Paredes.

[casimir]

10 minutes ago, Toddwert said:

you dont get Canha knowng your trying to get Hernandez and if you dont get him you try to trade for Canha or look at whose available in FA. I just  didnt think it was a great idea throw a bunch young guys in the deep end and tell them to swim which turns out I was right.... you have a bunch vets and mix in the young guys  and then trade the vets when it seems like the young guys can handle it. 

How do you know they didn't inquire on Hernandez?

[oblong]

2 hours ago, alex said:

When I say anytime it does not mean you think of a trade and make it in an instant. You know this of course. You look at players over time (scouting, project-ability, etc.). Not every team evaluates the exact same the way with their priorities ex 'control the zone' may have priority over 'raw talent' for the Tigers, etc.

I refer back to the one trade I mentioned (there have been many). Tampa did not just look at Paredes one day and say 'get him'. They looked over time, saw something, we may not have evaluated him the same way. When Greene went down, we asked about AMeadows and - wholla a deal was done. They evaluated Paredes, had a different view than what we did. I am not saying for better or worse, the point is - it was different. Then you throw in teams looking to shed some payroll (as tenacious D mentions below) as Tampa was. The deal itself may have taken time as far as Tampa was concerned. To us the fans it came out of nowhere. This is what I mean. Anytime a deal can get done.

The Tigers can do the same thing at anytime. They may be doing so right now. They should be identifying, being realistic and taking 'some' actions ( a priority list, project-ability, finding out how coachable, etc.). SHarris has been with Detroit 1 1/2 years now. He was with SF and the Cubs before that.

My question still is 'does this FO, SHarris, JGreenberg, etc. have the ability to acquire via Trades talented players? Do they have the ability to negotiate deals? It does not take an extensive amount of time to do this. Either you have this savy (ex ability to negotiate, bluff, be up front, play poker, etc.) or you do not. If you have some inclination for it you might be able to develop it to an extent.

IMHO, AA did not have this, yet DD before him did. Does this group (in particular SHarris) have it? They are not rookies here. If they do not have the ability to work deals, then just drafting and developing (the most important aspect of course) can only go so far. Yes, ownership can back the FO (and it did with AA and DD) - but they still may have to negotiate against other teams for good FAs and more importantly negotiate/work trades. IF this FO cannot we may be in for another rebuild during another FO changeover. I am hoping this regime has 'some' ability here.

Yes, we need to be able to trade some of our prospects (I once again and am not saying the top 5 or so). Some teams may value some of our prospects higher than we do (see above). We as fans do not have the same 'reference' material as a good FO does. Yes, all FO have data - but the point is they may not all have the same valuation profiles.

We can make deals and acquire players. We are getting to the point, if our players stay healthy - and with P that is a big 'if' - that we will soon start to see whom we may acquire either as 'sellers or buyers' (or even both). The time is coming. IMHO, this 'core identification' idea is simply a way to stay 'idle' and buy time on the job. Where are those 'calculated risks' ?

Identify a list, go after, take a risk (on a younger appealing player or expiring contract) - and negotiate the deal(s). I remain steadfast. It can happen at anytime - if the FO has this ability. We shall see and it should not take 2 more years to find this out as we wait for another 'core' or 'the core' to develop.

The parts in bold relate to each other.... Tampa got Paredes from us because Avila wasn't good at trades.