2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[alex]

1 hour ago, oblong said:

 I'm not going to NOT go to a game because a guy didn't make some trades I thought he should have.  I go to games to have fun and spend time with family and friends and enjoy it.  Winning makes it fun, and stressful, but I don't let a lack of it ruin my day or evening.  Their wins don't pay my mortgage so it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

 

I agree, enjoy the games. Baseball is a way to 'somewhat' relax, take your mind off other things. It can get you thinking in another way. We are fans. We would like to win the game - yet, objectively one team wins each game and one loses. All will no doubt lose 60 games each year no matter how good they are. That is a lot of loses - but not when taken into perspective of an entire season. If you enjoy baseball - you are ahead of the game.

I am simply making an observation based on what I have seen so far with this current FO group. I am hoping the have a 'knack' and can help improve the team by means of a deal here and there. History shows this needs be done, here and there, to help 'sustainability' for a good organization. If not, often steps back are taken. Enjoy the boys of summer!

[Longgone]

15 minutes ago, alex said:

I am not saying Scott Harris is stupid. On the contrary, I think he is pretty smart. However, to work a deal one has to have an ability, a knack, a savvy for this type of thing - some have this and some do not. I am wondering if anyone in this /FO office has this ?!?

For AA, he had abilities in certain areas. He did some good things ex Miggy, JD, the trade of DNorris for Olsen, his own scouting years ago... he could use the owners funds ex JUpton, Zimmerman, ERod, Javy, etc... but he could not work a good deal when he had JV and JD to deal. He/even many of us 'thought' the JV deal 'could' be decent. Go back to that time and quite a few people did. Yet, as I said injuries are huge (see FPerez) and prospects are just that. He had proven commodities both times and unfortunately those deals were not positive for this franchise (no offense Jake R., as you are doing alright) and set us back (as did his FA signings).

As for DD he traded a few top prospects at the time ex JTurner to FL (Sanchez and Omar), GKapler (Juan Gone deal), etc. and they really did not work out for the 'prospects'. Yet, he could negotiate the good deals ex CGuillen, DFister, for even marginal players/prospects, etc. and three way deals ex Max, AJ, etc. He had his short comings also (we all do).

Again I am not advocating dealing our top prospects. Those lists are volatile. We see MLP Pipeline, BA, Fan graphs, etc. Heck for instance the Tigs could rate RCampos as their no. 4 prospect, another team as the no. 5 on our list and what fans see may be no. 18 on a public list.

These are not negatives toward the current regime. They are observations.  I stand by that a deal can be done at anytime to improve this org - My questioning is 'Can the current FO/SHarris improve this team with trades?' and IMHO if the current FO cannot do this, whether now or in 2 mos. or 1 year - then it will be much harder to succeed and we may be eventually looking at another rebuild.

Also, I agree with Toddwert, we do have some talent in the organization. Perhaps more than we have had in awhile. I do not think it is ' a lot of crap' as was mentioned. Other GMs/FOs here and elsewhere did & do deals with less. I am 'hoping' this FO can accomplish some good deals. We all know you have to acquire players via trades at times, not just waiver pick-ups and ownership spending. Again, identify, target and 'negotiate' the deal. Just as Tampa did with IParedes and MANY others with trades through history.

Is this FO capable of doing this?

Just a question that has not been answered positively, IMHO, as of yet. I am hoping. Go Tigs
😊

I think the best question to ask, regarding any sports regime, is are they moving in the right direction? In this case, I believe the answer is yes. Good trades are generally made when you trade your surplus for a weakness, anything else is just rearranging furniture. 

[alex]

Just now, Longgone said:

I think the best question to ask, regarding any sports regime, is are they moving in the right direction? In this case, I believe the answer is yes. Good trades are generally made when you trade your surplus for a weakness, anything else is just rearranging furniture. 

I do think they are moving forward. Scouting, drafting, development, facilities, nutrition, analytics, etc. Yet, IMHO, the 'knack' to make a deal will also be needed.

[Longgone]

Just now, alex said:

I do think they are moving forward. Scouting, drafting, development, facilities, nutrition, analytics, etc. Yet, IMHO, the 'knack' to make a deal will also be needed.

What is their surplus to trade? Trading from one area of value that you will need to fill some other area of need is not progress.

[1776]

What could the Tigers get in return for those City Connect uniforms?

[SkyBlue]

37 minutes ago, alex said:

I do think they are moving forward. Scouting, drafting, development, facilities, nutrition, analytics, etc. Yet, IMHO, the 'knack' to make a deal will also be needed.

Harris has been on the job for 18months, iirc, and has tackled numerous items, see your list, that are also critical to future success.  Some strong hires in areas that were weaknesses for a long time.

I'm enjoying what looks to be some improvement in the big league club and in the MiLB as well which is what I wanted to see. 

The hendling of Flaherty at the deadline will be an opportunity to get more information, not a conclusion, but another piece of the puzzle, at least there isn't a "no trade clause" to work around.  I wasn't impressed with no deadline deal for Eduardo but still don't know all the details of what did or didn't happen then.  I like what he and this group have done so far, Lorenzen last year and Flaherty this year and doing well in rebuilding these two pitchers.  Lee looks to be a good pickup in the Lorenzen deal 

Til then I'm enjoying watching the Tigers and the four milb teams each week.

[SkyBlue]

47 minutes ago, Longgone said:

What is their surplus to trade? Trading from one area of value that you will need to fill some other area of need is not progress.

I think this is a good question and starting point and I suspect they have been working through this for the last year.

[1984Echoes]

54 minutes ago, alex said:

I do think they are moving forward. Scouting, drafting, development, facilities, nutrition, analytics, etc. Yet, IMHO, the 'knack' to make a deal will also be needed.

I think Harris has already made a couple good trades.

But when push comes to shove... and we need that "one guy" and he's not in our system, we'll see if Harris can come up with the right answer, by trade or by FA signing.

I'm not really worried about that part yet... because we are certainly not yet in that position. That's for the future.

For now it's just sift through all these kids and try to find out who is part of a "foundation" and who isn't. And from there... what holes remain...? Can this team get better and start pushing for the playoffs with our "foundation"? Or not?

Again... we're not there yet.

.500 is a good step forward... need a few more steps.

[Tenacious D]

Here’s an example of a trade Harris could pursue.  Not saying he should, but this is feasible.

Tigers trade Jace Jung, Ty Madden

Cardinals trade Nolan Arenado, $25M

Jung is a top 75 prospect who has put together two very good consecutive seasons.  Madden has struggled at AAA, but still a good prospect, even if he ends up a reliever.

Arenado is 33, and having an atypical season for him.  Signed for another 5 seasons ($144M) and rumors are that the Cards might become sellers soon.

Arenado becomes our best position player and a much needed veteran presence.  Keith and Jung are a bit redundant, making him available.

Feel free to poke holes, but this is the type of trade that Dombrowski would make—sending unproven prospects for a proven veteran.

[Edman85]

If Arenado is struggling at his age, there's a decent chance this could be a sign of what the rest of that contract looks like. I'd rather not find out what that's like on the back end...

[kdog]

26 minutes ago, Tenacious D said:

Here’s an example of a trade Harris could pursue.  Not saying he should, but this is feasible.

Tigers trade Jace Jung, Ty Madden

Cardinals trade Nolan Arenado, $25M

Jung is a top 75 prospect who has put together two very good consecutive seasons.  Madden has struggled at AAA, but still a good prospect, even if he ends up a reliever.

Arenado is 33, and having an atypical season for him.  Signed for another 5 seasons ($144M) and rumors are that the Cards might become sellers soon.

Arenado becomes our best position player and a much needed veteran presence.  Keith and Jung are a bit redundant, making him available.

Feel free to poke holes, but this is the type of trade that Dombrowski would make—sending unproven prospects for a proven veteran.

I'm not trading for a 33 year old guy 5 years left on a bad contract. If the alternative is waiting for the next wave of prospects, I guess I'd choose that.

There have to be upgrades that don't have boat anchor contracts.

[1776]

14 minutes ago, kdog said:

I'm not trading for a 33 year old guy 5 years left on a bad contract. If the alternative is waiting for the next wave of prospects, I guess I'd choose that.

There have to be upgrades that don't have boat anchor contracts.

Agreed. I would have taken the Chapman contract as it is structured though.

[Longgone]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Here’s an example of a trade Harris could pursue.  Not saying he should, but this is feasible.

Tigers trade Jace Jung, Ty Madden

Cardinals trade Nolan Arenado, $25M

Jung is a top 75 prospect who has put together two very good consecutive seasons.  Madden has struggled at AAA, but still a good prospect, even if he ends up a reliever.

Arenado is 33, and having an atypical season for him.  Signed for another 5 seasons ($144M) and rumors are that the Cards might become sellers soon.

Arenado becomes our best position player and a much needed veteran presence.  Keith and Jung are a bit redundant, making him available.

Feel free to poke holes, but this is the type of trade that Dombrowski would make—sending unproven prospects for a proven veteran.

If you had a veteran, championship caliber club, and this was the last piece of the puzzle, maybe you’d make that trade, but for the tigers at this point, it would be an exercise in futility.

[tiger2022]

1 hour ago, Tenacious D said:

Here’s an example of a trade Harris could pursue.  Not saying he should, but this is feasible.

Tigers trade Jace Jung, Ty Madden

Cardinals trade Nolan Arenado, $25M

 

 

This would be the worst trade in the history of the franchise.  Anyone who even thought of making that trade should be fired ASAP.  

[Tenacious D]

We all know Jung will fail.  All of our position prospects do.  I’m OK flipping him for someone younger with a better contract—we can always add to him for the right player.

[Hongbit]

Maybe we can trade for this guy.   Looks like a nice prospect.

 

[SeattleMike]

32 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

Maybe we can trade for this guy.   Looks like a nice prospect.

 

Pretty much everyone has an OPS of 1000 this year in AAA. 

[alex]

11 hours ago, Tenacious D said:

Here’s an example of a trade Harris could pursue.  Not saying he should, but this is feasible.

Tigers trade Jace Jung, Ty Madden

Cardinals trade Nolan Arenado, $25M

Jung is a top 75 prospect who has put together two very good consecutive seasons.  Madden has struggled at AAA, but still a good prospect, even if he ends up a reliever.

Arenado is 33, and having an atypical season for him.  Signed for another 5 seasons ($144M) and rumors are that the Cards might become sellers soon.

Arenado becomes our best position player and a much needed veteran presence.  Keith and Jung are a bit redundant, making him available.

Feel free to poke holes, but this is the type of trade that Dombrowski would make—sending unproven prospects for a proven veteran.

IMHO, 'NO' way on the trade - but appreciate your idea.

I like Arenado, but at 33 and 5 years left, St Louis will be looking to get out of that for awhile... Jung and Madden should garner more than that.

I think more along the lines of Jung and Madden (and maybe a regarded A level prospect ex 20-25 range) to LAD for SS/Inf Gavin Lux and one of C's Diego Cartaya or Thayron Liranzo.

or something like Madden and Hao-Yu Lee to Colorado for Ryan McMahon. Four years younger (29) signed through 2027 for 'apx' 60 million remaining. Can play 3B, 1B, 2B and LH bat.

To cycle back, the exception would be as Longgone posted 'unless Arenado might be a last vet piece' on a WS contending team and even then, at that point, they should be able to find a vet on the FA market for lesser years and money.

[casimir]

6 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

Pretty much everyone has an OPS of 1000 this year in AAA. 

Even Torkelson.

[casimir]

10 hours ago, Longgone said:

If you had a veteran, championship caliber club, and this was the last piece of the puzzle, maybe you’d make that trade, but for the tigers at this point, it would be an exercise in futility.

I think this is correct.  I think the Tigers still need to be mindful of building up the minors and how they use their prospects in trades.  Arenado's bat seems to have taken a step back this last season and a half.  Detroit's 3B have a -0.3 WAR so far this season while Arenado is at -0.1 coming off of a career low (excluding 2020) of 2.4.  Now, look, toss out -0.1 as a tough start to the season, but again, his OPS last season combined with this season is eye opening.

I liked the idea of acquiring a 3B on a shorter term deal.  I was on/off the Chapman free agency thing the past offseason.  I think what he got from San Francisco was a bit more than I'd have extended to him, but the mutual option on the 4th year kind of makes it a 3 year deal with only a $1M buyout after that.  So maybe not all that onerous.  Then again, it wouldn't have been just a cash expense, there was draft compensation attached, too.

[1776]

57 minutes ago, alex said:

or something like Madden and Hao-Yu Lee to Colorado for Ryan McMahon. Four years younger (29) signed through 2027 for 'apx' 60 million remaining. Can play 3B, 1B, 2B and LH bat.

I like this idea. Years ago on this board I suggested trading for McMahon when he was still in the minors. He has matured into a reliable piece for the Rockies. I don’t know if Colorado would part with him without additional compensation, players or money. They’re going nowhere so they would likely listen to offers. 
I’ve made a comment or two here about how deep the Rays are at shortstop and/or third base, even after the loss of Franco. Harris should at least have a conversation there as well. But I’m a realist, he won’t.
 

[casimir]

1 hour ago, alex said:

IMHO, 'NO' way on the trade - but appreciate your idea.

I like Arenado, but at 33 and 5 years left, St Louis will be looking to get out of that for awhile... Jung and Madden should garner more than that.

I think more along the lines of Jung and Madden (and maybe a regarded A level prospect ex 20-25 range) to LAD for SS/Inf Gavin Lux and one of C's Diego Cartaya or Thayron Liranzo.

or something like Madden and Hao-Yu Lee to Colorado for Ryan McMahon. Four years younger (29) signed through 2027 for 'apx' 60 million remaining. Can play 3B, 1B, 2B and LH bat.

To cycle back, the exception would be as Longgone posted 'unless Arenado might be a last vet piece' on a WS contending team and even then, at that point, they should be able to find a vet on the FA market for lesser years and money.

McMahon is 29 years old and has a career OPS+ of 92 in over 3,000 PA that is due $12M to $16M per season for the next, what, 4 seasons?  I'm not sure that's someone to trade for.  He's having a career year so far this season.  If Colorado wants to move him, this is probably the time.  But I don't see the attraction to acquire him.

[Hongbit]

7 hours ago, SeattleMike said:

Pretty much everyone has an OPS of 1000 this year in AAA. 

 

1 hour ago, casimir said:

Even Torkelson.

Not everyone has hit 16 HR already this season.  Only Andre Lipcius and that’s not just AAA but all of minor league baseball.     

[alex]

2 hours ago, casimir said:

McMahon is 29 years old and has a career OPS+ of 92 in over 3,000 PA that is due $12M to $16M per season for the next, what, 4 seasons?  I'm not sure that's someone to trade for.  He's having a career year so far this season.  If Colorado wants to move him, this is probably the time.  But I don't see the attraction to acquire him.

I actually agree with you. He might be decent though and not a huge price tag. I would prefer to find a 'close to/on the cusp' type prospect, like say where Jordan Westburg or Michael Busch were at this time last year. That could cost more and we may have that with Jace Jung already.

Maybe Micheal Vargas of LAD is interesting. Good at multiple minor league stops and not 'yet' at the MLB level. It is all a crap shot. That is where real scouting comes in. Yet, no question a certain amount of luck is involved.

We can all say I would like so and so ex Josh Jung or Evan Carter or Elly De La Cruz. That is more hindsight, not to mention the cost... Who do you think might be a 'potential' target to help the club?

[casimir]

1 hour ago, alex said:

I actually agree with you. He might be decent though and not a huge price tag. I would prefer to find a 'close to/on the cusp' type prospect, like say where Jordan Westburg or Michael Busch were at this time last year. That could cost more and we may have that with Jace Jung already.

Maybe Micheal Vargas of LAD is interesting. Good at multiple minor league stops and not 'yet' at the MLB level. It is all a crap shot. That is where real scouting comes in. Yet, no question a certain amount of luck is involved.

We can all say I would like so and so ex Josh Jung or Evan Carter or Elly De La Cruz. That is more hindsight, not to mention the cost... Who do you think might be a 'potential' target to help the club?

I was hoping the Tigers could swing a deal for Ha Seong-Kim (SD) this past offseason.  The glove plays around the IF.  Solid OBP, lower SO%, higher BB%, not much in the ISO but popped 16 HR last season, some speed.  He is at $8M this season, arbitration eligible for two more seasons, but I think there’s a mutual option to get into that after this season.  So I’m not quite sure what the deal is there.  But I thought he would have been a good left side of the IF defender, insurance at 2B if Keith completely fell apart for this season, and a competent get on base guy.

I have not looked much at upcoming FA.  The current IF needs help offensively.  Teams always churn through bullpen arms.  I think they’ve got a rock star in Skubal and solid SP in Olson.  I’d entertain extending Flaherty, but I suspect he’d want more than 3 years guaranteed (I think that’s as far as I’d go, tack on vesting option or two).

Torkelson really determines a lot, I think.  He could earn 1B or they could move on from him.  I think there could be some internal domino effect related to that.