2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[oblong]

13 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I would think a team would have to have a more than 50% chance of making the playoffs before they seriously consider selling off the top of the system to make the playoffs. I don’t think 12% or 7% is gonna cut it.

and I wonder with the expanded playoffs is "selling to make the playoffs" even a thing anymore.  Too early to tell I guess.

[chasfh]

Here’s how you know things are officially bad and in dire need of change: the beat media are aboard now: 

 

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

and I wonder with the expanded playoffs is "selling to make the playoffs" even a thing anymore.  Too early to tell I guess.

I think the thing teams look for more than someone to help them get to October is someone to help them get to November. That’s why I think the most likely trading partners for Flaherty, assuming continued health and dominance, would be the Dodgers, Braves, Yankees, and Phillies.

[kdog]

I know we are stuck with this roster...but playing McKinstry and Urshela on a team going nowhere is such a waste of time. Guessing we have reached the end of the line with Baddoo as soon as tomorrow. Ibanez will probably be moved at the deadline but you won't much.

Call up Meadows and invest more time in Wenceel for the rest of the year. 

[RatkoVarda]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

Here’s how you know things are officially bad and in dire need of change: the beat media are aboard now: 

I kind of feel bad for Harris, who has painted himself into a corner this Winter with his inaction. Canha, Kelly and Urshela will be gone and McKinstry and Baddoo will be released. He will have the 15 guys below: 2 starting OFs who struggle to stay healthy, a decent C in his walk year, and 2 nice bench guys in Vierling and Ibanez. Everyone else (even Keith) has huge question marks, or are trending down. Harris is going to have to do some big moves in FA or trades, even though I don't think he wants to. I just don't think anyone wants to hear that the 2027 team might be good.

Rogers - Dingler - Tork - Malloy - Keith - Baez - Jung - Kreidler - Leonard - Ibanez - Vierling - Greene - Carpenter - Perez - Meadows 

[chasfh]

I'm not giving up on Harris yet, and I'm not even willing to admit that he is a failure this year. Thee reasons: (1) it's still only June 20, for cry eye; (2) he's been on the job basically less than a season and a half so I don't believe he can be judged and dismissed on that basis; and (3) The rot was deep and it was always going to take a long time to clean it out, and I too thought we were closer than we are even with Avila's guys on the team, but now realize just how bad it all was and how behind the eight ball we were put.

That said, politically speaking, they might have to address the terrible offense perhaps even before the All-Star break, if for no other reason than to keep the torches and pitchforks at bay.

[RandyMarsh]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I think the thing teams look for more than someone to help them get to October is someone to help them get to November. That’s why I think the most likely trading partners for Flaherty, assuming continued health and dominance, would be the Dodgers, Braves, Yankees, and Phillies.

Yep that's why high end relievers also can fetch a relatively high return due to their extra importance in the playoffs. 

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, RandyMarsh said:

Yep that's why high end relievers also can fetch a relatively high return due to their extra importance in the playoffs. 

Right. Too bad we don't have any of those guys to sell.

[gehringer_2]

4 minutes ago, chasfh said:

That said, politically speaking, they might have to address the terrible offense perhaps even before the All-Star break, if for no other reason than to keep the torches and pitchforks at bay.

and don't underestimate owners in the equation. I think we assume CI in general takes an overall long view just because he is young enough to and has been around at the ownership level long enough to know the level of uncertainty that is native to the game. But all that said, I would think steady forward progress is still his bottom line with Harris, and probably more often than not, GM/POBO types with long range plans have their perspectives yanked back into shorter focus by an owner who decides to demand a better narrative NOW.

[tiger2022]

Maybe the math says 7%, but in reality, common sense should narrow it down to 0%.  There is no realistic possibility this trash roster makes the playoffs.

They have nothing to look forward to.  Flaherty and Skubal are going to be traded.  Flaherty this year and Skubal by the deadline next season.  Olson probably can't wait to get out of Detroit.  Mize is a bottom of the order guy.  Tork and Keith aren't going to be anything special.  I imagine they will probably trade Greene by next season too.  

A horse-bleep owner and a horse-bleep franchise.

If the owner doesn't care about the quality that is out there, why should we care about supporting it.

[kdog]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I'm not giving up on Harris yet, and I'm not even willing to admit that he is a failure this year. Thee reasons: (1) it's still only June 20, for cry eye; (2) he's been on the job basically less than a season and a half so I don't believe he can be judged and dismissed on that basis; and (3) The rot was deep and it was always going to take a long time to clean it out, and I too thought we were closer than we are even with Avila's guys on the team, but now realize just how bad it all was and how behind the eight ball we were put.

That said, politically speaking, they might have to address the terrible offense perhaps even before the All-Star break, if for no other reason than to keep the torches and pitchforks at bay.

I know messaging doesn't matter on bad teams. The only thing you can fix is adding talent and winning. But fans deserve to hear from him or ownership that things will be ok...even if we are skeptical.

[chasfh]

25 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

Maybe the math says 7%, but in reality, common sense should narrow it down to 0%.  There is no realistic possibility this trash roster makes the playoffs.

They have nothing to look forward to.  Flaherty and Skubal are going to be traded.  Flaherty this year and Skubal by the deadline next season.  Olson probably can't wait to get out of Detroit.  Mize is a bottom of the order guy.  Tork and Keith aren't going to be anything special.  I imagine they will probably trade Greene by next season too.  

A horse-bleep owner and a horse-bleep franchise.

If the owner doesn't care about the quality that is out there, why should we care about supporting it.

You know, if you don't care about supporting the team, there are any number of options at your disposal during this time of rebuilding. You can root for the Lions or Red Wings or U of M or other local teams. If you want to still root for a baseball team and don't want to waste your team on what a team you must think of as losers, you can choose to root for a team that has consistent success, like the Dodgers or Yankees, or who are doing well now, like the Guardians or Orioles or Phillies or Brewers or Mariners. Or, hey: how about the Twins or Nationals or Mets? They are all 8-2 in their last ten games, so they're hot. Maybe you can jump on one of their bandwagons for a while.

Point being, if you must root for a team that is winning right now, at this minute, and you either don't understand or don't care about the efforts the team you are posting about here is undertaking to make the organization a winner—or, more likely, if you think the team organization is overrun with bad actors trying to undermine it at every turn so they can laugh at you for following them in the first place—then the Tigers probably aren't the team for you.

Either way, even though there is a lot going on with this team that can be fairly criticized, the relentless, childish, and unserious negativity is just soul-crushingly boring. You can obviously stay here and post as much as you like, but if this is what we're going to continue to see from you, then I don't know who around here is going to take you seriously. Word to the wise.

[Hongbit]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

Maybe the math says 7%, but in reality, common sense should narrow it down to 0%.  There is no realistic possibility this trash roster makes the playoffs.

They have nothing to look forward to.  Flaherty and Skubal are going to be traded.  Flaherty this year and Skubal by the deadline next season.  Olson probably can't wait to get out of Detroit.  Mize is a bottom of the order guy.  Tork and Keith aren't going to be anything special.  I imagine they will probably trade Greene by next season too.  

A horse-bleep owner and a horse-bleep franchise.

If the owner doesn't care about the quality that is out there, why should we care about supporting it.

 

 

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, Hongbit said:

 

 

lol Deborah and Mark. Sounds like Gen Z's grandparents.

[tiger2022]

26 minutes ago, chasfh said:

You know, if you don't care about supporting the team, there are any number of options at your disposal during this time of rebuilding. You can root for the Lions or Red Wings or U of M or other local teams. If you want to still root for a baseball team and don't want to waste your team on what a team you must think of as losers, you can choose to root for a team that has consistent success, like the Dodgers or Yankees, or who are doing well now, like the Guardians or Orioles or Phillies or Brewers or Mariners. Or, hey: how about the Twins or Nationals or Mets? They are all 8-2 in their last ten games, so they're hot. Maybe you can jump on one of their bandwagons for a while.

Point being, if you must root for a team that is winning right now, at this minute, and you either don't understand or don't care about the efforts the team you are posting about here is undertaking to make the organization a winner—or, more likely, if you think the team organization is overrun with bad actors trying to undermine it at every turn so they can laugh at you for following them in the first place—then the Tigers probably aren't the team for you.

Either way, even though there is a lot going on with this team that can be fairly criticized, the relentless, childish, and unserious negativity is just soul-crushingly boring. You can obviously stay here and post as much as you like, but if this is what we're going to continue to see from you, then I don't know who around here is going to take you seriously. Word to the wise.

Well I guess you told me.  Either you love the crap that is out there or you are no fan.  

I humbly ask for your forgiveness because you are a true fan.

[SoCalTiger]

Well we certainly weren't as good as we looked at the start of the season and I don't think we are as bad as we look now either. I think Harris is building toward a time when his last draft class is emerging and trying to see who from the current team fits with them. But I do think his plan took a turn  downward with Tork, Meadows and Keith disappointing. The injury to Carpenter is hopefully another lesson learned ( like do not trust agents and players at the trade deadline) that depth is really really important. How Harris manages change, the challenge for all CEO's, will determine our fate. He has two big chips to spend in Flattery and Skubal and I hope he hits it out of the park. 

[Hongbit]

28 minutes ago, tiger2022 said:

Well I guess you told me.  Either you love the crap that is out there or you are no fan.  

I humbly ask for your forgiveness because you are a true fan.

 

[ben9753]

Los Angeles Golden Trout. No way. 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, tiger2022 said:

Well I guess you told me.  Either you love the crap that is out there or you are no fan.  

I humbly ask for your forgiveness because you are a true fan.

I’d humbly grant you forgiveness if you were serious instead of unserious. 😉

[chasfh]

2 hours ago, SoCalTiger said:

Well we certainly weren't as good as we looked at the start of the season and I don't think we are as bad as we look now either. I think Harris is building toward a time when his last draft class is emerging and trying to see who from the current team fits with them. But I do think his plan took a turn  downward with Tork, Meadows and Keith disappointing. The injury to Carpenter is hopefully another lesson learned ( like do not trust agents and players at the trade deadline) that depth is really really important. How Harris manages change, the challenge for all CEO's, will determine our fate. He has two big chips to spend in Flattery and Skubal and I hope he hits it out of the park. 

I don't think Harris is selling Skubal, and I don't want him to, either. A team could use a premier talent to motivate fans to come while rebuilding, and this organization has already squandered too much goodwill during the last eight years to afford shooting themselves in the foot like that.

[Tigerbomb13]

I would never say anyone is untradable, but Skubal is under team control until 2027. It would a take a king’s ransom if they were to trade him next year. 

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, Tigerbomb13 said:

I would never say anyone is untradable, but Skubal is under team control until 2027. It would a take a king’s ransom if they were to trade him next year. 

I'm not sure who I'd want in return for Skubal at this deadline, given as you say he is under control for two-plus years still, but it would have to be at the level of Jackson Holliday-plus, and I say "plus" because Skubal is proven and Holliday is not. And Holliday is transitioning to 2B, which doesn't scratch our shortstop itch anytime soon.

 

[chasfh]

The Beat Revolution is continuing apace. First Petzold with his "things gotta change" tweet that I shared a couple days ago. Now this, from Cody at the Athletic, answering a mailbag question:

With Colt Keith’s defensive metrics not being great at second base, is there any possibility that the Tigers could try him at first? They could then move Jace Jung, when he comes up, back to his Gold Glove position at second. — Josie C.

Sure seems to make a lot of sense, no? I would guess the Tigers want to take things slow with Keith given he has already spent the past year learning a new position. But at some point you have to accept the realities: Keith grades out very poorly at second (minus-8 defensive runs saved as of Thursday). Although he may improve at some of the nuances of the position with experience, he is only going to get more poorly suited for the position with age.

There is a gap at first base, and counting on Spencer Torkelson does not seem like a serious path forward anymore. At least having Keith take groundballs and making sure he can play first base at least part-time seems like the simplest solution. I’m a big fan of Occam’s razor.

See the part I've bolded and colored? That's what a beat writer giving up on a former 1/1 looks like.

Given how completely the Tigers have controlled the beat press, this does not look like a coincidence. I don't think the beats would be writing things like this without the Tigers being on board, or, even more Machiavellianistically, maybe actually directing this kind of coverage to prepare fans for big changes and/or announcements.

We may have arrived at the Very Interesting Times part of our program.

 

[RatkoVarda]

not sure where this goes but Petzold definitively states that Flaherty was signed to be traded and will be traded.

 

[gehringer_2]

38 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Beat Revolution is continuing apace. First Petzold with his "things gotta change" tweet that I shared a couple days ago. Now this, from Cody at the Athletic, answering a mailbag question:

With Colt Keith’s defensive metrics not being great at second base, is there any possibility that the Tigers could try him at first? They could then move Jace Jung, when he comes up, back to his Gold Glove position at second. — Josie C.

Sure seems to make a lot of sense, no? I would guess the Tigers want to take things slow with Keith given he has already spent the past year learning a new position. But at some point you have to accept the realities: Keith grades out very poorly at second (minus-8 defensive runs saved as of Thursday). Although he may improve at some of the nuances of the position with experience, he is only going to get more poorly suited for the position with age.

There is a gap at first base, and counting on Spencer Torkelson does not seem like a serious path forward anymore. At least having Keith take groundballs and making sure he can play first base at least part-time seems like the simplest solution. I’m a big fan of Occam’s razor.

See the part I've bolded and colored? That's what a beat writer giving up on a former 1/1 looks like.

Given how completely the Tigers have controlled the beat press, this does not look like a coincidence. I don't think the beats would be writing things like this without the Tigers being on board, or, even more Machiavellianistically, maybe actually directing this kind of coverage to prepare fans for big changes and/or announcements.

We may have arrived at the Very Interesting Times part of our program.

 

Funny thing is that I thing defense is where a lot of people have to have a little more patience. Keith hasn't even played half a season at 2b. I player with some base skills probably has a decent chance at making himself into better a fielder with technique improvements. We gave up on Willi Castro's and Paredes' serviceability with the glove a bit too soon for example.