2024 DETROIT TIGERS REGULAR SEASON THREAD

[gehringer_2]

44 minutes ago, chasfh said:

The Beat Revolution is,,,,,

 

Maybe - or it's just the writers chasing audience because a higher level of 'burn it down' critique is what appeals to the audience about now. I wouldn't take too much out what the local writers say one way or the other. I might put some stock into any subtle attitude shifts in the TV booth because I think those are the guys that probably spend the most time with Hinch - but that's just a spitball as well.

[Toddwert]

21 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe - or it's just the writers chasing audience because a higher level of 'burn it down' critique is what appeals to the audience about now. I wouldn't take too much out what the local writers say one way or the other. I might put some stock into any subtle attitude shifts in the TV booth because I think those are the guys that probably spend the most time with Hinch - but that's just a spitball as well.

you have to wonder if they are hearing stuff they cant say that is where this is coming from?... its just annoying they were ready to print playoff tickets in April  I kind of want my beat writers to be more stable with their takes

[oblong]

2 hours ago, chasfh said:

The Beat Revolution is continuing apace. First Petzold with his "things gotta change" tweet that I shared a couple days ago. Now this, from Cody at the Athletic, answering a mailbag question:

With Colt Keith’s defensive metrics not being great at second base, is there any possibility that the Tigers could try him at first? They could then move Jace Jung, when he comes up, back to his Gold Glove position at second. — Josie C.

Sure seems to make a lot of sense, no? I would guess the Tigers want to take things slow with Keith given he has already spent the past year learning a new position. But at some point you have to accept the realities: Keith grades out very poorly at second (minus-8 defensive runs saved as of Thursday). Although he may improve at some of the nuances of the position with experience, he is only going to get more poorly suited for the position with age.

There is a gap at first base, and counting on Spencer Torkelson does not seem like a serious path forward anymore. At least having Keith take groundballs and making sure he can play first base at least part-time seems like the simplest solution. I’m a big fan of Occam’s razor.

See the part I've bolded and colored? That's what a beat writer giving up on a former 1/1 looks like.

Given how completely the Tigers have controlled the beat press, this does not look like a coincidence. I don't think the beats would be writing things like this without the Tigers being on board, or, even more Machiavellianistically, maybe actually directing this kind of coverage to prepare fans for big changes and/or announcements.

We may have arrived at the Very Interesting Times part of our program.

 

I've been thinking about this over the last few days and this is a good place to express it... With twitter and podcasts and all of that... there's simply not enough things to talk about and people like Evan and Cody and those other non professional writer folks with podcasts have to find things to say and we've run out of them.  Talk radio can get by because they have callers and can change the subject to another sport or current events or whatever and that fills the time.   But these folks who have to fill up an hour or more each week, sometimes twice a week... they've run out of ideas.  Rage sells. Controversy sells.  I know that's nothing new but the quest for not only engagement but engagement on a daily basis leads to this.  That doesn't work when covering baseball because baseball is about trends and direction, not yesterday's game.  It's climate vs. weather, macro vs micro.

 

[chasfh]

1 hour ago, gehringer_2 said:

Maybe - or it's just the writers chasing audience because a higher level of 'burn it down' critique is what appeals to the audience about now. I wouldn't take too much out what the local writers say one way or the other. I might put some stock into any subtle attitude shifts in the TV booth because I think those are the guys that probably spend the most time with Hinch - but that's just a spitball as well.

I might believe you if the beat writers did not 100% depend on the teams to maintain their access to the front office, players, and information. You can ask Anthony Fenech about exactly how that works.

Thank you for your insights about local writers, which I will take under advisement.

[1984Echoes]

The flipside on Keith that I would ask:

He's playing 2nd because of last year's surgery on his shoulder IIRC. 

Does his shoulder get back to full strength as more time passes from the surgery? Can he make the throws from 3B by now? Is there a chance that he goes back to 3B? I believe if his arm/shoulder warrants... he's more valuable at 3B than at 1B.

Just my 2 cents.

[chasfh]

13 minutes ago, oblong said:

I've been thinking about this over the last few days and this is a good place to express it... With twitter and podcasts and all of that... there's simply not enough things to talk about and people like Evan and Cody and those other non professional writer folks with podcasts have to find things to say and we've run out of them.  Talk radio can get by because they have callers and can change the subject to another sport or current events or whatever and that fills the time.   But these folks who have to fill up an hour or more each week, sometimes twice a week... they've run out of ideas.  Rage sells. Controversy sells.  I know that's nothing new but the quest for not only engagement but engagement on a daily basis leads to this.  That doesn't work when covering baseball because baseball is about trends and direction, not yesterday's game.  It's climate vs. weather, macro vs micro.

 

I think of the art of divining what teams are doing under the hood through shifts in coverage tone by the beat media as akin to Kremlinology. You can’t rely on the powers at the top to be forthright with you about what’s really happening, of course, but you can make an educated guess based on what the supplicants say, and how they say it.

When guys like Petzold and Cody make the sudden shift from “things are fine and prospects will advance, trust us” to “things have gotta change and we can’t rely on our top prospect anymore”, that tells me they are getting signals from inside that it’s OK to start talking about this stuff in this way. Because if the beat guys start appearing to badmouth the team and their product in conflict with what the front office itself is saying, they won’t be on the beat for much longer—again, ask Fenech. And I don’t see signals from the front office that everything is still all right as is so trust us. That message hasn’t been coming out like that lately.

So if the organization is flashing those signals, and the dependent media are reflecting that in their reporting, then I’m concluding that something is up and something is gonna happen soon.

Counterpoint: I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about so ignore me and my tinfoil hat. 😁

[gehringer_2]

10 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I might believe you if the beat writers did not 100% depend on the teams to maintain their access to the front office,

 

this also probably explains why they tend to move enmasse. There is cover in numbers. The team would find it al lot harder to cut off everyone at once.

[chasfh]

5 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

this also probably explains why they tend to move enmasse. There is cover in numbers. The team would find it al lot harder to cut off everyone at once.

Which is why I think the team might be giving a signal that it’s OK to start talking about the team in this way, because beat writers are changing their tone about it all at once. We’re talking about two major guys here at the very least, not just one rogue Fenech.

TBF, McCosky is still talking about only minor roster adjustments, like Meadows up for Malloy or Baddoo, but I’m keeping my eye on his output, too.

[gehringer_2]

11 minutes ago, chasfh said:

ask Fenech

 

has he re-surfaced anywhere? Very odd for a person in any kind of journalism to just give it up completely.

Edited June 21 by gehringer_2

[kdog]

I don't think it's a hot take from Cody with Tork. If he was a CF or a middle infielder with defensive value, you would give him more time. But he's a DH masquerading as a 1B and is well below replacement level. 

OTOH, Chris Brown thinks they are going to give Tork another full offseason chance to win the job back. So I don't know who to believe. With the way he's been performing in Toledo, it doesn't matter. He's not worth discussing until we see some meaningful changes in his swing process.

Edited June 21 by kdog

[chasfh]

BTW, Tork is 1-for-20 (a single) with a walk and six strikeouts in his last five games. In Triple-A.

Something worth watching …

[chasfh]

1 minute ago, kdog said:

I don't think it's a hot take from Cody with Tork. If he was a CF or a middle infielder with defensive value, you would give him more time. But he's a DH masquerading as a 1B and is well below replacement level. 

OTOH, Chris Brown thinks they are going to give Tork another full offseason chance to win the job back. So I don't know who to believe. With the way he's been performing in Toledo, it doesn't matter. He's not worth discussing until we see some meaningful changes in his swing process.

I don’t think it’s a take that’s hot, either. But I think the fact that he is saying anything like this at all might be actually meaningful, and not just a thing he’s writing to meet a deadline.

[SoCalTiger]

Tork seems to be in a bad place mentally in regards to baseball. Living under the 1-1 pressure and now demoted twice after being brought up to early initially. He is a prime change of scenery guy. I think a trade to the west coast would be beneficial to him. Oakland would be ideal. Low pressure. 

[buddha]

11 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

has he re-surfaced anywhere? Very odd for a person in any kind of journalism to just give it up completely.

maybe he's working with former beat writer danny knobler in his bar in thailand?

[gehringer_2]

7 minutes ago, chasfh said:

BTW, Tork is 1-for-20 (a single) with a walk and six strikeouts in his last five games. In Triple-A.

Something worth watching …

Looking at the pitches in his gameday plots, he seems to be swinging at a lot of pitches he would normally take. One hopes that's a deliberate experiment to stretch out his plate coverage and not that he's completely befuddled. But only he and his coaches would know for sure.....

[oblong]

13 minutes ago, gehringer_2 said:

 

has he re-surfaced anywhere? Very odd for a person in any kind of journalism to just give it up completely.

Hasn't tweeted in 4 years.  Last tweet was July 2020 about Casey Mize.

Maybe Verlander forced him into the witness protection program.  He had Fister run out of town.

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, oblong said:

Hasn't tweeted in 4 years.  Last tweet was July 2020 about Casey Mize.

Maybe Verlander forced him into the witness protection program.  He had Fister run out of town.

I thought he was still at the Free Press in some local bureau doing dogcatcher stories?

[buddha]

24 minutes ago, chasfh said:

I think of the art of divining what teams are doing under the hood through shifts in coverage tone by the beat media as akin to Kremlinology. You can’t rely on the powers at the top to be forthright with you about what’s really happening, of course, but you can make an educated guess based on what the supplicants say, and how they say it.

When guys like Petzold and Cody make the sudden shift from “things are fine and prospects will advance, trust us” to “things have gotta change and we can’t rely on our top prospect anymore”, that tells me they are getting signals from inside that it’s OK to start talking about this stuff in this way. Because if the beat guys start appearing to badmouth the team and their product in conflict with what the front office itself is saying, they won’t be on the beat for much longer—again, ask Fenech. And I don’t see signals from the front office that everything is still all right as is so trust us. That message hasn’t been coming out like that lately.

So if the organization is flashing those signals, and the dependent media are reflecting that in their reporting, then I’m concluding that something is up and something is gonna happen soon.

Counterpoint: I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about so ignore me and my tinfoil hat. 😁

maybe the organization is doing what all organization's do after changes are made and the initial results are below expectations?  you blame the prior management team!

which in this case, would be true.

the tigers' rebuild started in 2023.  its only been on year.  its going to take some time to dig our from under this mess.  dealing for Lee last year was a start, getting a good prospect for flaherty will be the idea this year, and then getting a haul for skubal next year (or this year) will be the foundational pieces that make us the 2016 cubs.

but it will take a bit to get out from under the albatross of a decade of al avila.  

[1984Echoes]

6 minutes ago, kdog said:

... thinks they are going to give Tork another full offseason chance to win the job back...

I think this is the best path.

AAA in 2024 for the rest of the season. He needs to work on both his offensive and defensive game.

Just by appearances, from what I've seen of him... it just LOOKS to me like he is not taking the game seriously. Fat & happy in Detroit and a 1-1 who will get paid/ get his. If he can't take this game seriously and improve... Then move him out.

I think 2024 in Toledo and one more offseason to decide how much and at what level he would actually like to play in MLB is the right recipe. If he is surpassed at 1B in Spring Training, by anyone, then send him back to Toledo and move him at the first opportunity. If he DOES decide to take the game seriously and makes the necessary improvements... then fine, let him have that chance. Can he get to Tony Clark level? Maybe that's good enough. I would prefer a Konerko level... but TC would be good enough?

[chasfh]

2 minutes ago, buddha said:

maybe the organization is doing what all organization's do after changes are made and the initial results are below expectations?  you blame the prior management team!

which in this case, would be true.

the tigers' rebuild started in 2023.  its only been on year.  its going to take some time to dig our from under this mess.  dealing for Lee last year was a start, getting a good prospect for flaherty will be the idea this year, and then getting a haul for skubal next year (or this year) will be the foundational pieces that make us the 2016 cubs.

but it will take a bit to get out from under the albatross of a decade of al avila.  

This. Right here. Unfortunately.

The Skubal thing, I don’t know how they let him go anytime soon, unless he becomes just too hot to handle in the clubhouse.

[chasfh]

4 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

Just by appearances, from what I've seen of [Tork]... it just LOOKS to me like he is not taking the game seriously. Fat & happy in Detroit and a 1-1 who will get paid/ get his. If he can't take this game seriously and improve... Then move him out.

I am shocked that you of all people brought this up but I’ve been hypothesizing this since at least last season.

[buddha]

7 minutes ago, 1984Echoes said:

I think this is the best path.

AAA in 2024 for the rest of the season. He needs to work on both his offensive and defensive game.

Just by appearances, from what I've seen of him... it just LOOKS to me like he is not taking the game seriously. Fat & happy in Detroit and a 1-1 who will get paid/ get his. If he can't take this game seriously and improve... Then move him out.

I think 2024 in Toledo and one more offseason to decide how much and at what level he would actually like to play in MLB is the right recipe. If he is surpassed at 1B in Spring Training, by anyone, then send him back to Toledo and move him at the first opportunity. If he DOES decide to take the game seriously and makes the necessary improvements... then fine, let him have that chance. Can he get to Tony Clark level? Maybe that's good enough. I would prefer a Konerko level... but TC would be good enough?

he's a poor man's andrew vaughn, not anywhere near konerko.  when konerko was his age he was raking.

if you squint hard enough you could see tony clark, but clark took time because of his height (i think).  i dont think that's tork's issue.

but i hope youre right and he gets things fixed.  i just doubt it.

[buddha]

6 minutes ago, chasfh said:

This. Right here. Unfortunately.

The Skubal thing, I don’t know how they let him go anytime soon, unless he becomes just too hot to handle in the clubhouse.

he gets you the most haul now, he's a pitcher with an injury history who could get hurt at any time and lose that value, and he's going to be even more valuable on his cheap contract.

he might be the most valuable chip on the market if you move him now.

otoh, he could be johan santana...

[Toddwert]

41 minutes ago, kdog said:

I don't think it's a hot take from Cody with Tork. If he was a CF or a middle infielder with defensive value, you would give him more time. But he's a DH masquerading as a 1B and is well below replacement level. 

OTOH, Chris Brown thinks they are going to give Tork another full offseason chance to win the job back. So I don't know who to believe. With the way he's been performing in Toledo, it doesn't matter. He's not worth discussing until we see some meaningful changes in his swing process.

Chris would be the first to point out he doesnt have connections like the beat guys and this is just a guess

[oblong]

1 hour ago, chasfh said:

I think of the art of divining what teams are doing under the hood through shifts in coverage tone by the beat media as akin to Kremlinology. You can’t rely on the powers at the top to be forthright with you about what’s really happening, of course, but you can make an educated guess based on what the supplicants say, and how they say it.

When guys like Petzold and Cody make the sudden shift from “things are fine and prospects will advance, trust us” to “things have gotta change and we can’t rely on our top prospect anymore”, that tells me they are getting signals from inside that it’s OK to start talking about this stuff in this way. Because if the beat guys start appearing to badmouth the team and their product in conflict with what the front office itself is saying, they won’t be on the beat for much longer—again, ask Fenech. And I don’t see signals from the front office that everything is still all right as is so trust us. That message hasn’t been coming out like that lately.

So if the organization is flashing those signals, and the dependent media are reflecting that in their reporting, then I’m concluding that something is up and something is gonna happen soon.

Counterpoint: I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about so ignore me and my tinfoil hat. 😁

I don't think in this day and age, outside of markets like NY or Boston, that orgs have to lay this groundwork anymore.  I'm not saying you can't be right... just that I don't think they need to do that.  I never claim to be an expert on anything.